Channeling The Founding Fathers
August 19, 2007On August 8th, Rep. Bill Sali apparently spoke to/for the dead:
“We have not only a Hindu prayer being offered in the Senate, we have a Muslim member of the House of Representatives now, Keith Ellison from Minnesota. Those are changes — and they are not what was envisioned by the Founding Fathers,” Sali said, according to an article on the network’s Web site.
Oooooohhhhhhmmmmm…
I think it’s perfectly valid to consider the Founding Fathers’ intentions when it comes to interpreting the Constitution. After all, they wrote the darn thing. Channeling them on the issue of equal opportunity in government is something of a howler though. The Constitution was written in a time when black people were slaves and women couldn’t vote. I guess it’s safe to say that they didn’t “envision” blacks or women (or the double whammy…a black woman) representing the people in Congress either. Or take the 16 Mormons serving in Congress. Here we have a religion that didn’t even come into existence until after the Fathers were dead.
Now it’s a black Muslim. Oh…the humanity.
Sali responded days later, sending Ellison an e-mail explaining he meant no offense.
“He said that he wanted to make sure that Congressman Ellison understood that he meant no harm or disrespect,” Sali spokesman Wayne Hoffman said.
Hey Keith, your very existence in Congress flies in the face of my interpretation of what the Founding Fathers envisioned. No offense buddy.
Perhaps he should send an apology to every member of Congress whose race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc. fits within the criteria of “changes not envisioned by the Founding Fathers” ?
Sali wasn’t done with this topic though. On August 13, he felt the need to expand on it a bit and posted this on his website: Sali: Religious freedom, Christian principles important to the nation. Read the whole thing, but here’s the conclusion:
The Judeo-Christian principles on which our republic was founded can be embraced, defended and practiced by people of any faith. Anyone doing so will find an ally in me. But when principles outside of the Judeo-Christian tradition begin to be promoted within Congress, we should all recognize that the government given to us by the Founding Fathers will be at risk. That should give every American serious pause.
The problem with this piece is, Sali doesn’t really offer any examples of principles being promoted outside of the tradition. If someone of different faith (like Ellison) is capable of adhering to the principles, where is he failing? Just by showing up? The whole post is laughably convoluted. Take this nugget:
For example, in order to protect the language of every ethnic group multiculturalists would find it hard to support English as the official language of the US. The Judeo-Christian heritage would protect the right of every man to know and speak as many languages as he desires, but the banner of E Pluribus Unum could restrict our official language to one, the product of our country’s origin and for 400 years the common language of the American people: English.
“E Pluribus Unum” itself is, of course, Latin.
ChenZhen's Chamber 
Yeah, you know, because equality and diversity and all that stuff is, like, cool and what what we stand for, unless.. like.. it involves some certain people.. But we’re cool, right?
What a twit..
Yeah. Equality. Like you find in the koran. Equality- the kind you try to smear people with. Because hypocritical equality is the best kind!
As if you have any idea about the Quran beyond all the twisted lies you’ve been told on LGF. Yeah right. I dare you to prove your point to me, because you can’t.
Good luck trying.
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other and because they spend of their property (for the support of women).
surah 4:34
Man- is that ever equality. But wait- that verse continues!
So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
Because nothing says equality like wife beating.
O ye who believe! Let your slaves, and those of you who have not come to puberty, ask leave of you at three times (before they come into your presence): Before the prayer of dawn, and when ye lay aside your raiment for the heat of noon, and after the prayer of night. Three times of privacy for you.
surah 24:58
Slaves, huh? That just screams “equality”.
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)
surah 9:5
I’m starting to notice a pattern.
O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end.
surah 9:73
Whoa!
It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire.
surah 9:113
See- there’s that pattern again.
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
surah 9:123
I’m starting to feel warm and fuzzy from all the happy equality hearts and flowers floating about.
We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess – that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
surah 33:50
“Right hands possess”? That’s slaves again, right?
Then We shall pluck out from every sect whichever of them was most stubborn in rebellion to the Beneficent. And surely We are Best Aware of those most worthy to be burned therein.
surah 19:69-70
Ok- you have me on that one. That’s pretty equal.
so never be a helper to the disbelievers.
surah 28:86
That pattern is crystalizing.
Keep thy duty to Allah and obey not the disbelievers and the hypocrites.
surah 33:1
Don’t help, don’t obey. That’s some really equality between the religions you guys promote there.
Hast thou not seen those who take for friends a folk with whom Allah is wroth? They are neither of you nor of them, and they swear a false oath knowingly.
surah 58:14
You mean we can’t be friends either? 😦
On the day when (some) faces shall turn white and (some) faces shall turn black; then as to those whose faces turn black: Did you disbelieve after your believing? Taste therefore the chastisement because you disbelieved. And as to those whose faces turn white, they shall be in Allah’s mercy; in it they shall-abide.
surah 3:106-107
There’s no quotas in paradise?
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half.
surah 4:11
I’m no math wiz, but I’m pretty sure that’s not equal shares.
Allah directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance: If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance: If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them): if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female
surah 4:176
*Looks back at previous post*
Ah, one of those infamous verses that are always quoted, and the larger picture never mentioned with it along with them..
Domestic violence? HAH! As if it’s only confined to Islamic societies. Be realistic, it’s everywhere, whether you and I like it or not.
Besides, any real Muslim will tell you that hitting your wife is supposed to be a very last resort, and should never be done without a reason. Furthermore, he should under no circumstance beat her severely or injure her. Ever.
Not to mention that if a man treats his wife unjustly, she has the right to get justice, or get divorced even.
Speaking about womens’ rights, let’s take a look at what Islam granted them more than 1400 years ago now, shall we?
Every Muslim woman has the..
– Right to live (The early pagan Arab tribes used to bury newborn girls out of fear of shame. Islam was founded, and Mohamed strictly forbade this practice.)
– Right to education (My University here in Germany only allowed female students to enroll merely a century ago)
– Right to work.
– Right to own property and manage her own money.
– Right to choose a husband, and to keep all her belongings to herself along with her maiden name after marriage.
– Right to get divorced.
– Right to engage in trade.
– Right to inherit.
About inheritance, sure a woman usually inherits half of what her brother gets, BUT: Every adult and capable male member of a family is obliged to support them financially. Be it his children, his sister, his parents, his wife, etc.. It’s his duty as a man, and if he neglects this, he can be taken to court. Whereas the woman is not obliged to contribute with anything. If she wants to, it’s even better. But if she doesn’t, nobody can hold anything against her. What she inherits is hers and hers only. Effectively speaking, the man gets to keep as much to himself as his sister, if not less even.
You probably didn’t know half of all that, to be optimistic. Or you did and you’re just being stubborn.
Well, looks like Islam has preceded you in terms of gender equality by a long shot. Yep, that great religion you detest so much, that has put men and women on an equal level, concerning their rights and duties before God.
Judging by your trademark glib remarks, I’d suppose that doesn’t make you very happy, does it? Probably serves you right for your irrational hate.
Come on Sharmuta, that was too easy. You can do better than that.
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way
surah 4:15
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
surah 4:16
That pattern is really starting to flesh out.
I’m fully aware that you can beat me symbolically with a toothbrush, yes. Fact is, you can still use force against women- wives or slaves. Rape too.
LMAO- save your bullsh*t. Right to life so long she hasn’t dishonored her father, brother or husband.
Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will
surah 2:223
And what sexual rights does she have?
He it is Who hath made you regents in the earth; so he who disbelieveth, his disbelief be on his own head.
surah 35:39
But wait a minute!
Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will
surah 35:8
I need help with this one. How is it allah can send me astray, but it’s my fault?
Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.
But allah is the one who closed my heart.
“Well, looks like Islam has preceded you in terms of gender equality by a long shot.”
Huh? I have all those rights and then some. What’s more- mine aren’t being deprived by my American brothers. Too bad muslim women can’t say the same about their brothers.
Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will.
surah 14:4
And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
surah 3:85
But- it was allah who closed my heart to islam. It’s like allah punished me twice.
“As if it’s only confined to Islamic societies.”
It’s just in islamic societies it’s sanctioned by “god”.
“Besides, any real Muslim will tell you that hitting your wife is supposed to be a very last resort, and should never be done without a reason. Furthermore, he should under no circumstance beat her severely or injure her.”
Oh- than I guess that makes it okay. Hitting women lightly as a last resort is equality.
Ok, seeing that you’re spamming this comment section with ripped-out-of-context verses, I’ll respond to them all at once. The first one I’ve already elaborated on:
“Slaves, huh? That just screams “equality”.”
Slavery has existed LONG before Islam appeared. What you probably were completely oblivious of is that slavery is considered undesirable in Islam, but because it was a widespread pre-Islamic custom, the teachings were adapted to the situation then.
One of the greatest deeds a Muslim can do is free a slave. Prophet Mohamed even said: “The best slave a man can free is the most valuable to his master”.
One of the most famous Ex-slaves in Islam was Bilal, an Ethiopian slave owned by the pagan Omayya ibn Khalaf, who used to mistreat and torture him after he converted to Islam. Abu Bakr, Mohamed’s best companion, bought Bilal from Omayya, and freed him instantly. Bilal became the first Muazzin (Caller for prayer) in Islam, and was one of Mohamed’s closest friends.
Do me a favour and watch this movie before spewing any more rubbish about Islamic backgrounds.
Next!
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)
surah 9:5
I’m starting to notice a pattern.”
LOL, that’s the easiest one yet. You had no idea that this verse is of entirely historical background. Watch the movie I told you about. And then, before you make a complete idiot out of yourself, look at the verses before and after this one:
[9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.
[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know. “
First, you get the context wrong, then the applicability of this verse. Great job!
Next!
“O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end.
surah 9:73
Whoa!”
Shocked? Read on:
“[9:74] They swear by GOD that they never said it, although they have uttered the word of disbelief; they have disbelieved after becoming submitters. In fact, they gave up what they never had. They have rebelled even though GOD and His messenger have showered them with His grace and provisions. If they repent, it would be best for them. But if they turn away, GOD will commit them to painful retribution in this life and in the Hereafter. They will find no one on earth to be their lord and master.
[9:75] Some of them even pledged: “If GOD showered us with His grace, we would be charitable, and would lead a righteous life.”
[9:76] But when He did shower them with His provisions, they became stingy, and turned away in aversion.
[9:77] Consequently, He plagued them with hypocrisy in their hearts, till the day they meet Him. This is because they broke their promises to GOD, and because of their lying.”
Find me a religion where God says he’ll be nice to those.
Next!
“It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire.
surah 9:113
See- there’s that pattern again.”
You wretched pattern will collapse very soon.
Fact: You don’t pray for their forgiveness
Other fact you didn’t know: You pray for them to see the light and return to God, upon which their forgiving is secured.
Next!
“O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
surah 9:123
I’m starting to feel warm and fuzzy from all the happy equality hearts and flowers floating about.”
I’m happy for you. Now tell me what kind of rubbish translation is that?
“[9:123] O you who believe, you shall fight the disbelievers who attack you – let them find you stern – and know that God is with the righteous.”
What a difference a mistranslation can make.. Me having an original Quran in Arabic with me doesn’t really help you, sorry to say..
Next!
“#
#
We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess – that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
surah 33:50
“Right hands possess”? That’s slaves again, right?”
Refer to my latest comment on slavery. Oh right, and watch “The Message”
“Then We shall pluck out from every sect whichever of them was most stubborn in rebellion to the Beneficent. And surely We are Best Aware of those most worthy to be burned therein.
surah 19:69-70
Ok- you have me on that one. That’s pretty equal.”
The Beneficent = God. It’s one of God’s 100 names in Islam.
And now again, find me a religion where God is merciful with those who actively and stubbornly strive against him and his followers. It’s called God’s justice after all.
Next!
“so never be a helper to the disbelievers.
surah 28:86
That pattern is crystalizing.”
Yawn..
“[28:83] We reserve the abode of the Hereafter for those who do not seek exaltation on earth, nor corruption. The ultimate victory belongs to the righteous.
[28:84] Whoever works righteousness receives a far better reward. As for those who commit sins, the retribution for their sins is precisely equivalent to their works.
[28:85] Surely, the One who decreed the Quran for you will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say, “My Lord is fully aware of those who uphold the guidance, and those who have gone astray.”
[28:86] You never expected this scripture to come your way; but this is a mercy from your Lord. Therefore, you shall not side with the disbelievers.
[28:87] Nor shall you be diverted from GOD’s revelations, after they have come to you, and invite the others to your Lord. And do not ever fall into idol worship.
[28:88] You shall not worship beside GOD any other god. There is no other god beside Him. Everything perishes except His presence. To Him belongs all sovereignty, and to Him you will be returned. “
Same with all other religions.. Once again..
“Keep thy duty to Allah and obey not the disbelievers and the hypocrites.
surah 33:1
Don’t help, don’t obey. That’s some really equality between the religions you guys promote there.”
You’ve probably believe this cock-and-bull myth about Christians and Jews being regarded as infidels in Islam. Can’t be more false. Islam is the ONLY religion beside Christianity and Judaism that acknowledges Christ’s and Moses’ divine messages. In the Quran you’ll find the same characters found in the Bible and the Torah. Amongst the tenants of belief are to believe in ALL of God’s holy books and his prophets. Oh how unequal are we Muslims..
And now back to your (mis)quote:
“[33:1] O you prophet, you shall reverence God and do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites. God is Omniscient, Most Wise.”
Entirely historical. Battle of Al Ahzab (The parties), when the hypocrites of Madina and the pagans of Mecca ganged up against the Muslim community and sought to destroy them. Watch “The Message”.
Next!
“Hast thou not seen those who take for friends a folk with whom Allah is wroth? They are neither of you nor of them, and they swear a false oath knowingly.
surah 58:14
You mean we can’t be friends either? :(“
How very, very touching. Well if you’re not going to hate me and fight me for my religion..
“[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.”
.. then we can gladly be friends. And even if we’re in conflict I’ll be fair with you..
“[5:8] O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses. Do not be provoked by your conflicts with some people into committing injustice. You shall be absolutely equitable, for it is more righteous. You shall observe GOD. GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.”
.. but if you insist on fighting me becuase of my religion, then no.. I don’t think we could be friends.
Next!
“On the day when (some) faces shall turn white and (some) faces shall turn black; then as to those whose faces turn black: Did you disbelieve after your believing? Taste therefore the chastisement because you disbelieved. And as to those whose faces turn white, they shall be in Allah’s mercy; in it they shall-abide.
surah 3:106-107
There’s no quotas in paradise?”
Now you’re being dumb on purpose. This has nothing to do with skin colour, it’s meaning is entirely symbolic.
I’ll tell you loud and clear: THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ANY RACE IN ISLAM.
Next!
“Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half.
surah 4:11
I’m no math wiz, but I’m pretty sure that’s not equal shares.”
Read my first comment on gender equality. I’ve addressed just that point. Effectively, it is an equal share. You don’t need to be a math genius to get that.
Next!
“If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way
surah 4:15
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
surah 4:16
That pattern is really starting to flesh out.”
Your pattern of blatant mistranslations is starting to flesh out.
“[4:15] Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.
[4:16] The couple [Not two men – ed.] who commits adultery shall be punished. If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
[4:17] Repentance is acceptable by GOD from those who fall in sin out of ignorance, then repent immediately thereafter. GOD redeems them. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
[4:18] Not acceptable is the repentance of those who commit sins until death comes to them, then say, “Now I repent.” Nor is it acceptable from those who die as disbelievers. For these, we have prepared a painful retribution.
[4:19] O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit what the women leave behind, against their will. You shall not force them to give up anything you had given them, unless they commit a proven adultery. You shall treat them nicely. If you dislike them, you may dislike something wherein GOD has placed a lot of good.”
Next!
“I’m fully aware that you can beat me symbolically with a toothbrush, yes. Fact is, you can still use force against women- wives or slaves. Rape too.”
Which blabbering idiot told you that? Rape is completely and strictly forbidden. Get a clue, Goddammit!
Next!
“Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will
surah 2:223
And what sexual rights does she have?”
Exactly the same rights he does. Period.
Next!
“He it is Who hath made you regents in the earth; so he who disbelieveth, his disbelief be on his own head.
surah 35:39
But wait a minute!
Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will
surah 35:8
I need help with this one. How is it allah can send me astray, but it’s my fault?”
Because there are SOME people who simply refuse to understand. God knows who refuses his guidance.
Next!
“Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.
But allah is the one who closed my heart.”
No, it was you. You have fallen for lies, misinformation, and submitted to propaganda that has concealed a LOT of things about Islam. Do you believe in God, Sharmuta? Allah and God are one and the same.
““Well, looks like Islam has preceded you in terms of gender equality by a long shot.”
Huh? I have all those rights and then some. What’s more- mine aren’t being deprived by my American brothers. Too bad muslim women can’t say the same about their brothers.”
Does Islam have anything to do with the actions of a few people? No, it simply doesn’t. Because followers of EVERY faith will commit crimes, do mistakes, etc. After all, you don’t blame the law for the criminals.
“Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will.
surah 14:4
And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
surah 3:85
But- it was allah who closed my heart to islam. It’s like allah punished me twice.”
Once again, God and Allah are simply two different names for the same higher being. God knows about you and your real intentions.
Don’t play all innocent and say: “It was Allah who closed my heart.”
It was _you_. You’d have never opened up your heart to Islam anyway, judging by your way of thinking. And it’s crystal clear that even though I’m trying to reason with you, you refuse to listen, and only reply with more and more lies.
If YOU wanted to learn about Islam’s true nature, you would. But you hanging around on LGF shows that you don’t care.
For all I care, take up whatever religion you want, and believe in God whether you want or not. But God is just, and everyone will be blessed or punished according to their true intentions.
“As if it’s only confined to Islamic societies.”
It’s just in islamic societies it’s sanctioned by “god”.
“Besides, any real Muslim will tell you that hitting your wife is supposed to be a very last resort, and should never be done without a reason. Furthermore, he should under no circumstance beat her severely or injure her.”
Oh- than I guess that makes it okay. Hitting women lightly as a last resort is equality.
It’s definitely not the inequality you wish it’d be. And yet again, you completely ignore everything that concerns womens rights, and restrict yourself to one small point
What if we were to talk about life in America and I was to cling onto the shootings at schools that happen every now and then, and ignore the rest? You’d call me an idiot, wouldn’t you. Well I’m glad we got that straight.
Wow Sharm, that was really easy. Didn’t take any effort at all, except all the typing. How about that, one of the most cynic voices of LGF unable to prove a point to a 19-year old Muslim, and being exposed for complete ignorance. Charles will be very proud of you, I’m sure!
And sorry to Chen for the very long comment. Didn’t want to fill this section up with 20 comments or something.
“Fact: You don’t pray for their forgiveness”
And how do you know that’s a fact?
“God and Allah are simply two different names for the same higher being. ”
Not true.
http://www.letusreason.org/Islam6.htm
“Allah and God are one and the same.”
This is not true.
“It’s definitely not the inequality you wish it’d be.”
I’m not the one who has to somehow justify sura 4:34.
Damn, kinda sucks that I have to go to work. This is good enough for a thread in and of itself.
You assume to much, little boy.
The koran says I will go to hell. Only muslims go to paradise:
And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
surah 3:85
So don’t give me that “intention” line.
You know what your problem is? Your little “holy” book is one fat contradiction after another. There is no cumpulsion in religion, islam must prevail over all religions. One contradiction after the other.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/index.html
But I think I’ll listen to my new male friend from saudi arabia instead of you. He is proud to be murtaad and knows more about the real islam than a euro punk like you.
“Exactly the same rights he does. Period.”
That is a lie and you know it.
“Which blabbering idiot told you that? Rape is completely and strictly forbidden. Get a clue, Goddammit!”
First off- it’s allahdamnit to you.
And is that why they execute rape victims in iran? Because it’s forbidden?
“Now tell me what kind of rubbish translation is that?”
Sorry- I use a compilation of the three most widely regarded english translations- hailed by muslims the world over.
http://www.asksam.com/cgi-bin/as_web6.exe?Command=First&File=Koran
“ripped-out-of-context verses”
I’m well acquainted with this tactic. It’s a straw-man. The islamic apologists are no different in cherry picking quotes from the koran to prove their point. Taken to the extreme, you’d need to quote the entire koran to keep it all in context. Well- that’s just silly. What’s also silly is the sister argument we already dealt with- which is the translation. Of course- for the koran to be understood- you have to read it in arabic.
Anyways- when I or others at LGF say things like militant islamists want to impose shari’a law on the west, you don’t have to take my word for it. Maybe you’d rather listen to a more REASONED voice, I’m hoping Thomas Jefferson will suffice:
“The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet (Mohammed), that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman (or Muslim) who should be slain in battle was sure to go to heaven.”
The more things change~
Strange, I’ve tried to submit my comment many times, it just disappears.. What gives? Maybe it’s too long?
Oh well, I’m off to study now. Will try again in a few hours.
Ok, one last attempt. Maybe I should split this up:
“Fact: You don’t pray for their forgiveness”
And how do you know that’s a fact?”
Wow, you really topped yourself there. Helloooo? Who is the Muslim here? And who knows more about Islam and Sunna? The fact stands that it’s not forgiveness you pray for, but enlightenment and guidance. Which ultimately lead to forgiveness.
““God and Allah are simply two different names for the same higher being. ”
Not true.”
You bet your backside it is. If God and Allah were NOT the same, then:
Would you find most of the biblical figures in the Quran again? (Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel, Abraham, Noah, Joseph, Jesus, Moses, the evil Pharaoh, Garbiel the archangel, .. the list goes onWould Jesus be considered the miracle birth of the Virgin Mary in the Quran?
Would Allah tell us to acknowledge the Gospel and the Torah as holy books, and all the prophets as bringers of a holy message to humanity?
Would Islam warn us about the antichrist (Al Maseeh al daggal – The deceiver Messiah), and tell us that a major sign of the end of days is the return of Jesus himself to thwart this antichrist?
Would Prophet Mohamed comare all the prophets before him to builders of a large and beautiful house that people admire as they pass by, only with one small space in the wall missing a brick, and himself as that very last brick that completes the whole project?
The answer to all that would be _no_. So due to the fact that all that is true, there is no reason to believe why God/Allah should be any different. After all, God is also called Jahwe, Theos, Deus, Gott, Dieu, Jehova, Eloh, etc.
” “It’s definitely not the inequality you wish it’d be.”
I’m not the one who has to somehow justify sura 4:34.”
If you think I have to justify anything to you then you’re wrong. You are clearly on the wrong side of information and are in dire need of a clue. I’ve demonstrated to you how women’s rights are taught in Islam, and yet again you ignore all that, because it grandiously contradicts your point of view.
“You assume to much, little boy. The koran says I will go to hell. Only muslims go to paradise:
And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
surah 3:85
So don’t give me that “intention” line.”
One of the biggest myths ever believed by the likes of you. Did you even read the verse carefully? It says (and all other religions will agree) that if you do not submit yourself to God (Same thing as Allah once again, whether you like it or not), you shouldn’t really expect the red carpet treatment on Judgement day, should you?
Anybody who believes in God and leads a righteous life is entitled to God’s mercy.
Ok, one last attempt. Maybe I should split this up:
“Fact: You don’t pray for their forgiveness”
And how do you know that’s a fact?”
Wow, you really topped yourself there. Helloooo? Who is the Muslim here? And who knows more about Islam and Sunna? The fact stands that it’s not forgiveness you pray for, but enlightenment and guidance. Which ultimately lead to forgiveness.
““God and Allah are simply two different names for the same higher being. ”
Not true.”
You bet your backside it is. If God and Allah were NOT the same, then:
Would you find most of the biblical figures in the Quran again? (Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel, Abraham, Noah, Joseph, Jesus, Moses, the evil Pharaoh, Garbiel the archangel, .. the list goes onWould Jesus be considered the miracle birth of the Virgin Mary in the Quran?
Would Allah tell us to acknowledge the Gospel and the Torah as holy books, and all the prophets as bringers of a holy message to humanity?
Would Islam warn us about the antichrist (Al Maseeh al daggal – The deceiver Messiah), and tell us that a major sign of the end of days is the return of Jesus himself to thwart this antichrist?
Would Prophet Mohamed comare all the prophets before him to builders of a large and beautiful house that people admire as they pass by, only with one small space in the wall missing a brick, and himself as that very last brick that completes the whole project?
The answer to all that would be _no_. So due to the fact that all that is true, there is no reason to believe why God/Allah should be any different. After all, God is also called Jahwe, Theos, Deus, Gott, Dieu, Jehova, Eloh, etc.
” “It’s definitely not the inequality you wish it’d be.”
I’m not the one who has to somehow justify sura 4:34.”
If you think I have to justify anything to you then you’re wrong. You are clearly on the wrong side of information and are in dire need of a clue. I’ve demonstrated to you how women’s rights are taught in Islam, and yet again you ignore all that, because it grandiously contradicts your point of view.
“You assume to much, little boy. The koran says I will go to hell. Only muslims go to paradise:
And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
surah 3:85
So don’t give me that “intention” line.”
One of the biggest myths ever believed by the likes of you. Did you even read the verse carefully? It says (and all other religions will agree) that if you do not submit yourself to God (Same thing as Allah once again, whether you like it or not), you shouldn’t really expect the red carpet treatment on Judgement day, should you?
Anybody who believes in God and leads a righteous life is entitled to God’s mercy.
“You know what your problem is? Your little “holy” book is one fat contradiction after another. There is no cumpulsion in religion, islam must prevail over all religions. One contradiction after the other.”
It’s not the Quran that’s contradictory, it’s you who’s too blind to actually recognize that. No compulsion in religion? Of course not! You’re free to embrace Islam and you’re free not to. God has created us with a brain and showed us the right and the wrong way, along with what lies at the end of each way, and we are to decide what way we’d rather take. Get a better idea about Islamic teachings, watch “The Message” and forget every lie they’ve told you.
Gah, sort of double posted the first part of that last comment. Sorry bout that. Ok now I really give up. Be back later with the rest.
Have ye thought upon Al-Lat and Al-‘Uzza And Manat, the third, the other? Are yours the males and His the females? That indeed were an unfair division!
surah 53:19-22
“It’s not the Quran that’s contradictory, it’s you who’s too blind to actually recognize that.”
What faulty logic is this? When I come across a contradiction in the koran, it’s not a contradiction, it that I’m blind? That’s not an argument. That is a circular logic dismissal of the point. If you’re so confident the koran is not contradictory, go ahead and put that in your search engine and read up. While you’re at it search for factual errors in the koran. Scientific errors in the koran. Historic errors in the koran. Edits in the koran.
I suppose- anyone who’s even taken a jaundiced eye look at islam is just blind. No one who has ever written about islam did so from an open perspective, desiring to state facts after applying reason. No one who’s written about islam has done so because they lived as a muslim and have knowledge of islam.
“You’re free to embrace Islam and you’re free not to.”
That’s why apostates get the death penalty, huh?
“Get a better idea about Islamic teachings”
One could say the same to you.
“forget every lie they’ve told you.”
One could say the same to you.
“If God and Allah were NOT the same, then: Would you find most of the biblical figures in the Quran again?”
Yes.
“”Would Jesus be considered the miracle birth of the Virgin Mary in the Quran?”
Yes.
Would Allah tell us to acknowledge the Gospel and the Torah as holy books, and all the prophets as bringers of a holy message to humanity?”
Yes.
“Would Islam warn us about the antichrist (Al Maseeh al daggal – The deceiver Messiah), and tell us that a major sign of the end of days is the return of Jesus himself to thwart this antichrist?”
Yes.
“Would Prophet Mohamed comare all the prophets before him to builders of a large and beautiful house that people admire as they pass by, only with one small space in the wall missing a brick, and himself as that very last brick that completes the whole project?”
Yes.
This was all done that mohammed might convert the Jews and Christians of arabia to his new religion. mohammed borrowed extensively from the Torah and early Christian teachings- that’s why they are there.
You say you acknowledge Jesus. The koran also denies the crucifixion of Jesus. But that is what the Bible says- he was crucified. So how is it that allah would want you to acknowledge a book of what must be lies since the Bible and koran differ here?
Sorry about all the posts Chen, but I thought- maybe you’d like to have a thread with a lot of comments on it. It might make you feel like Charles. Too bad I don’t have a blog of my own that I could go and post some snarky comments about you- maybe then you could really feel like him.
There’s something very screwy about the comments here. I have everything in a text file, but when I copy and paste it here and press “Submit”, it just disappears. Why does this happen?
I’ve uploaded my response to you here:
http://users.physik.tu-muenchen.de/aomran/Sharmuta.txt
[Ed– Here is the text.)
“But I think I’ll listen to my new male friend from saudi arabia instead of you. He is proud to be murtaad and knows more about the real islam than a euro punk like you.”
Go ahead, do whatever the hell you want to do. Probably he won’t tell you anything beyond all the bullcrap you’ve been gladly accepting all the time. Your loss after all.
And “Euro punk”.. highly charming, especially when it comes from somebody with Arabic for “whore” as a nickname.
Just a friendly reminder: I’m not even European. I’m just a proud Egyptian that’s studying here.
But it’s nice to see that you judge people just by their places of origin or religion, just like the rest of the lot over at LGF. Contributes a lot to intelligent conversation.
“Exactly the same rights he does. Period.”
That is a lie and you know it.
Is it really? Just because it doesn’t fit into your narrow pretext of “Muslim = evil”?
You know what? Go ahead and prove that I’m lying. And please try harder than your attempt to show that Islam promotes inequality. Because I hope for your credibility that that wasn’t your best effort.
“Which blabbering idiot told you that? Rape is completely and strictly forbidden. Get a clue, Goddammit!”
First off- it’s allahdamnit to you.
And is that why they execute rape victims in iran? Because it’s forbidden?
I will call him God or Allah as I please. It’s none of your business, thank you very much.
And they execute the rape victims because they’re retarded. Any Muslim with half a brain will tell you that it’s the rapist who should be punished.
“Now tell me what kind of rubbish translation is that?”
Sorry- I use a compilation of the three most widely regarded english translations- hailed by muslims the world over.
http://www.asksam.com/cgi-bin/as_web6.exe?Command=First&File=Koran“
And I have the original Arabic text in front of me, along with the meanings of some words and the reasons why certain verses where released. Something I can compare the translations with and verify their correctness.
So what to trust more, the translations or the real thing?
“ripped-out-of-context verses”
I’m well acquainted with this tactic. It’s a straw-man. The islamic apologists are no different in cherry picking quotes from the koran to prove their point. Taken to the extreme, you’d need to quote the entire koran to keep it all in context.
It’s always “Islamic apologists” isn’t it. What was the definition of that? Riiight, a strawman.
And yes, I would quote and comment on the entire Quran here to prove you wrong if I had the time, but sadly I don’t.
“Well- that’s just silly. What’s also silly is the sister argument we already dealt with- which is the translation. Of course- for the koran to be understood- you have to read it in arabic.”
Then you admit to not understanding it?
“Anyways- when I or others at LGF say things like militant islamists want to impose shari’a law on the west, you don’t have to take my word for it. Maybe you’d rather listen to a more REASONED voice, I’m hoping Thomas Jefferson will suffice:
“The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet (Mohammed), that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman (or Muslim) who should be slain in battle was sure to go to heaven.”
The more things change”
See that sentence I emphasized? It sounds suspiciously similar to Verse 9:5, that myth which I’ve debunked earlier by quoting the preceding and following verses that completely turn the whole context around.
With all due respect, it seems like Thomas Jefferson didn’t know what he was talking about. After all, the only ones Muslims have to fight are those who attack Muslims first.
“What faulty logic is this? When I come across a contradiction in the koran, it’s not a contradiction, it that I’m blind?”
You’ve proven many times now that you’re incapable of grasping the true context behind verses. Else you wouldn’t be wasting your time misquoting verses here. So when something appears contradictory to you, that doesn’t mean it is.
“If you’re so confident the koran is not contradictory, go ahead and put that in your search engine and read up”
I don’t need search engines to read up. After all I have a perfect copy of the book right next to me. Better read from the source itself, no?
“While you’re at it search for factual errors in the koran. Scientific errors in the koran. Historic errors in the koran. Edits in the koran.”
I’ll dismiss that point as complete gibberish before you post any proof.
“Get a better idea about Islamic teachings”
One could say the same to you.
“forget every lie they’ve told you.”
One could say the same to you.
Oh shut up. You come here with the same poop that everyone else who’s like you comes up with, and prove to have no idea what you’re talking about. In fact, you should be ashamed of yourself that every argument you’ve brought has proved to be flawed, if not downright completely baseless. And who are you to tell ME to get a better idea about MY religion?
Preposterous. That’s what it is.
“This was all done that mohammed might convert the Jews and Christians of arabia to his new religion. mohammed borrowed extensively from the Torah and early Christian teachings- that’s why they are there.”
LOL, I actually found that to be funny. Who told you that fairy tale? And how could Mohamed have borrowed all those things whereas by the time he started preaching, he was in Mecca where there were no Christians or Jews around anyway, only Pagans?
“You say you acknowledge Jesus. The koran also denies the crucifixion of Jesus. But that is what the Bible says- he was crucified. So how is it that allah would want you to acknowledge a book of what must be lies since the Bible and koran differ here?”
What God revealed to Jesus is what we acknowledge as holy words. The Bible includes much more than that. And when it says in the Bible that Jesus was crucified, by that time he was dead anyway, regardless of whether he was crucified or not. I don’t think God would have been revealing to him anything new at that time.
Seems I’ve even overestimated you. You really aren’t trying hard enough.
“Why does this happen?”
allah hates you, that’s why.
“a 19-year old Muslim”
Yes- because everyone is aware that 19 year olds know everything, and are never wrong.
Like I’d click your link. What do you take me for- a shameless sharmuta? Post it here, allah-boy. If you can’t- well then- it must be the will of allah.
I have no problem commenting here.
allah must prefer Sharmuta.
I would consider changing my debate technique if I was you. You should START with “I am a 19 year old muslim”. This debate would have been over hours ago if you had. You’re a 19 year old muslim?! You win! That’s the ultimate trump card, Honey. It even trumps, “I’m drunk!”
And no where in the history of the world has a 19 year old found justification for his or her beliefs in a movie. That’s unique.
Sorry about the comment hiccups gang. WordPress occasionally has little glitches like that. They’re rare, but it’s frustrating. Anyway, I added the text to the Sphinx’s post.
I post things from LGF over here for several reasons. For the most part, it’s a situation where an interesting topic has arisen in the comments and and I feel like giving it my own thread for discussion over here. These debates that we have can get lost in the volume of comments over there and it’s kinda nice to have it here on my blog as a reference point if I want to come back to it later or expand on an argument. Things move exponentially faster on LGF, so it’s a way that people can come back to it later. Other times it’s simply my own way of documenting some of the weird or interesting stuff that I stumble upon over there. Still other times it may just be some random thoughts independent of my actual posts on the site. If you click on the ‘lgf’ tag in my sidebar it will pull them all up.
This “respect is a two way street” notion makes me chuckle a bit though, for reasons I posted upthread. Since you don’t have your own blog, you probably don’t know that any link to LGF I post on this site will show up in his logs (likely as a ‘pingback’). -If you’ve ever wondered how he knows about people badmouthing LGF on other sites, that’s why- In other words, he knows what I’m posting over here if he took the time to check it out. So far, it appears that he’s ignored it, but if it was really as bad as you are making it sound I’m guessing he wouldn’t hesitate to ban me or sic the lizards on me.
“Why does this happen?”
allah hates you, that’s why.
Wow, I never knew you had prophetic abilities. Perhaps you’re not as deluded, arrogant, ignorant and
[/sarcasm off]
“Like I’d click your link. What do you take me for- a shameless sharmuta? Post it here, allah-boy. If you can’t- well then- it must be the will of allah.”
Chen clicked it and nothing happened. What are you, chicken? If you knew enough about PCs you’d know that txt files aren’t unsafe. Nice to know you trust me. Feeling’s mutual.
“I have no problem commenting here.
allah must prefer Sharmuta.”
First it’s “Allah closed my heart”, “Allah punished me twice” and then this? Girl, you’re talking out of your @$$.
“a 19-year old Muslim”
Yes- because everyone is aware that 19 year olds know everything, and are never wrong.
You are soooo funny, do you know that? Wow, very fresh ad-hominem arguments, lawl. I should learn a few from you. Gosh, how astoundingly hilarious could somebody be.
Well you’ve failed to prove a point to this 19-year old who seems to be always wrong to you. Doesn’t that make it more shameful?
“And no where in the history of the world has a 19 year old found justification for his or her beliefs in a movie. That’s unique.”
That movie brought nothing new to me. It was the biography of the Prophet as I already knew it. It merely serves as a way to let ignorant people like you get a clue.
Justification from a movie.. Wow.
Is it possible that you live up to your nickname? Because I really find you less pleasant by the minute..
“It’s not the Quran that’s contradictory, it’s you who’s too blind to actually recognize that.”
Translation: Don’t believe your own lyin’ eyes! (I had to go over this one again- it’s too funny.)
“I’ll dismiss that point as complete gibberish before you post any proof.”
Refuses to even consider a reasonably offered argument supported with actual proof…
“And yet again, you completely ignore everything that concerns womens rights, and restrict yourself to one small point”
To some of us- violence against women isn’t a small point. No matter how you sugar-coat it, islam allows you to hit your wives. You haven’t denied it, you’ve merely “re-framed” it.
“Go ahead and prove that I’m lying.”
I would love to prove you’re lying about women having equal sexual rights under islam, but I need your help. Can you tell me which sura and verse or which hadith I can NOT find these rights enumerated? Honest- I would love for you to prove me wrong, but you can’t- otherwise you would have given me the quote already.
“And how could Mohamed have borrowed all those things whereas by the time he started preaching, he was in Mecca where there were no Christians or Jews around anyway, only Pagans?”
mecca being a trading center at the time and mohammed himself having traveled near and far on business for his wife, I’m sure there is no way that mohammed could have come in contact with Jews and Christians before he began his preaching. Have you read any sira? Oh- and never mind the three Jewish tribes of medinah where he continued to receive “revelations”.
“I’m just a proud Egyptian that’s studying here.”
You must be very proud to come from Egypt- with such a long history of mutilating their daughters’ genitals and where the higher education is worthy of sending their sons overseas.
“Well you’ve failed to prove a point to this 19-year old”
Funny- YOU’VE failed to prove any point whatsoever. You seem to think that just because you repeat what you’ve been taught that this somehow makes what you say a fact. Your counterpoint isn’t immune to scrutiny. Basically- you’re arguments are the equivalent of “Because I said so”. That might work on a two year old, but it won’t fly with me. No links to back up your claims, and your quotes won’t work either because two can play the “context” game. You’ve proven nothing to me. Just because you offered AN argument doesn’t mean you’ve won THE argument.
“Doesn’t that make it more shameful?”
You’re the one who comes from a shame based society- you tell me. You throw down a challenge to an infidel sharmuta (the nic too nuanced for a muslim boy to comprehend) and this was not enough to get her to back down- she took you up on it. You “refute” her claims and she calls you a liar on a point you failed to prove HER wrong on. And you haven’t convinced her she’s wrong or changed her mind in the slightest. You even went on to use the very tactic she predicted. What’s worse- she still hasn’t shut up, even though you asked her to. Aren’t YOU the one feeling shame?
BTW- I was right before and I was wrong before. I was wrong when I said your problem was that your “holy” book was riddled with contradictions. That’s not your problem. I was right before when I said, I think you think you’re smarter than you really are. THAT is your problem.
“Wow, very fresh ad-hominem arguments”
You are the biggest hypocrite on the face of the earth.
Oh- and I actually saw my murtaad friend this morning. After I told him what you said about him, I asked if there was anything he’d like to me to pass on to you. He said, “Tell him to read the Bible.”
I’d like to take this opportunity to thank Fuzuli, who, when engaged in a similar conversation with me, was a complete gentleman- never once stooping to the tactic of belittling his opponent, as well as providing actual links to reinforce his arguments. Nor did he ever resort to ad-hominem attacks while simultaneously claiming to be the victim of one, or even use profanity, censored or otherwise. After this, I kind of miss you Fuz.
Anyways- have a nice life and afterlife, sphinxter. I hear Paradise is to die for.
“You’re the one who comes from a shame based society-“
You know next to nothing about my society. So just shut up.
“You “refute” her claims and she calls you a liar on a point you failed to prove HER wrong on. And you haven’t convinced her she’s wrong or changed her mind in the slightest. You even went on to use the very tactic she predicted. What’s worse- she still hasn’t shut up, even though you asked her to. Aren’t YOU the one feeling shame?”
Same remarks given straight back to you.
“never once stooping to the tactic of belittling his opponent”
You actually dared to write that? “Little Boy”, “Euro punk”, your slander of Egypt, “Sphinxter”, ..
Wow, you’re are one seriously messed up individual.
Farewell Sharmuta. Try not to drown in your hate, it’s not very healthy. And I hope I never have to see the likes of you ever again.
“So just shut up.”
Another trump card. Stuck a nerve?
“Same remarks given straight back to you.”
Still waiting for that sura and verse or hadith.
“slander of Egypt”
Prove clitoridectomies were outlawed long ago instead of recently. Prove the universities are ranked highly in the world. That’s not slander- it’s fact.
“And I hope I never have to see the likes of you ever again.”
Heh.
Wow Sharmuta you seem to have hit a nerve with the Sphinx here. An apparently proud egyptian muslim who has all the benefits of an expensive education (being a male) and sees no inequality to the treatment of women in his egalitarian muslim society.
Unlike Fuzuli this opponent is a lot ruder.
Sphinx you can keep claiming that things are different than they are, but the world can see how women are treated, how slavery is legal in many muslim countries, and the human condition in many muslim countries is deplorable.
There are a bunch of international reports that has Egypt leading the horde of genital-cutting hell holes. (google FGM and egypt) It is something like in the 90%+ that their women get their genitals mutilated! What! That paragon of “moderate Islam” mutilates 90% of their women! I’m shocked! Won a $50 bet with my leftist father on that one.
Also how freeking stupid must Allah be to allow his prophet to be a pedophile and have sex with a 9 year old? Why couldn’t Allah forsee that society would consider someone having sex with a 9YO as a pervert and pedophile? Doesn’t this imply that Allah is just a figment of Mohammeds pedophilic mind?
I dislike all or most of what people have criticised her in Islam, and in the cultures that have embraced it, but they act as if these were Muslim vices. These are human vices: you can find such behaviour all over the place, regardless of religion or in spite of it, and can easily find equally-appalling injunctions in the Torah, Talmud, New Testament, the writings of the Church Fathers, Luther, Calvin, and (of course) Jonathan Edwards (the author of the hateful and hate-filled “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”, not the politician John Edwards).
This is clearer to me because I am atheist, and would be just as dead killed with a club for it in Kansas in 2050 (if this goes on) as I would have been had I been hanged in Algiers for it in 1050, or burned for it in Padua in 1540.
I would also like to point out that the term used, “Judeo-Christian”, is no older than 1950 or so. Until around 1840, most Protestant churches wouldn’t acknowledged each other: at that point, “menaced” by the new Catholics coming into the country, Protestants began to refer to themselves as “Christians”, as opposed to “Catholics”. Later, as too many Catholics showed up to ignore, and they integrated themselves well into American society (e.g., by learning to hate black people), and more Jews showed up, “Christian” began to be used for both Prot Heretics and Followeres of the Whore of Babylon. After WWII, when Jews became more politically useful and the Germans had managed to make anti-Semitism be less respectable, the term “Judeo-Christian” was introduced. Some Christians still hate the term, some Protestants still barely acknowledge Catholics as Christians, but they’re in the minority.
Prediction: in 50 years, some politician will stand up and declare some group a threat to our “Abrahamic values” or some term tweaked to include the (rich, useful, very AMerican) Hindu community.
Duh: “criticised her”–>”criticised here”
“AMerican”–>”American”
780539 beers on the wall. sck was here
Remarkable things here. I am very glad to peer your post. Thanks so much and I am taking a look ahead to touch you. Will you kindly drop me a e-mail?