WPBA Views on 1/20: Bush’s Home Stretch
January 20, 2008This is it! It’s the last year of the Bush administration. As much as people like myself feel that this might be cause for some preliminary celebrations, remember that we do have a whole year left. A lot can happen in a year, after all.
Truth be told, I’m a heck of a lot more hopeful than I thought I was going to be at this point. As some of you might know, before I created the Chamber, I was a guest contributor on the now-defunct FearBush.com blog. I actually spent a good portion of 2006 expressing my anti-Bush views over there. So while it probably goes without saying that I’m looking forward to his departure from office, I going to go ahead and admit that I’m not as passionate about it as I used to be.
The founders of FB.com had originally predicted back in 2000 that Bush’s ascendancy into the White House meant certain disaster, marked by global war (at best) or nuclear armageddon (at worst) . “GWB=WWIII” was the underlying theme. Now, while that prediction was considered by many as kooky at first, there was a certain amount of vindication for it later, as the nation marched off to invade not one county but two, culminating with the president himself using the phrase World War III when describing the conflict that he’s overseeing. Without a doubt, Bush’s legacy will be one that revolves around war. But even after the countless thousands dead, billions of dollars spent, and the unknowable consequences and blowback that may lie ahead, it’s hard to honestly say that America has been damaged to the point where it cannot recover. Bush has been terrible, but not quite as terrible as had been predicted. Of course, there’s still a year left (which might be why there are still calls for impeachment).
Over the last year, I’ve definitely softened my tone with regards to Bush. The facts are still the facts, but maybe I’ve just adopted more of a “glass half-full” mindset. I’ve almost come to pity the man. Here’s a guy that was elevated into a position that was clearly over his head, based on little more than name recognition, who appears to have aged 20 years over the course of seven, and can’t seem to put together a single coherent sentence on his own. The poor guy is so unpopular that he can’t even come out and campaign with any of the Republican candidates, and for the first time since 1928 the outgoing administration isn’t offering up a VP for the job. Americans are so anxious to move on that campaigning began earlier than any time in my life, and even the Iowa caucus was moved up 2 weeks. Heck, the world can’t wait to move on. As sad as it is that such a man could be elected president (twice), I’ve come to realize that these things don’t necessarily mean that he’s evil. After all, we’re still here, right? It could be worse! Maybe it’s just Cheney who’s evil.
So, as we head into the last year of what will probably be viewed as the worst administration in America’s history, I’ll cross my fingers and hope that these people are so politically marginalized that they can’t do any more damage. A strike on Iran seems less likely than it did a year ago, Iraq is still a mess but showing signs of progress, he’s probably done nominating anyone else to serve on the Supreme Court, and we haven’t had a major hurricane in awhile. He can probably sit back and let others make headlines as the nation focuses on choosing who will finally replace him.
At least I’m hoping…
ChenZhen's Chamber 
The way I see it, his biggest failure is Katrina, not Iraq. The jury is still out on Iraq. I didn’t think so a few months ago, but I was wrong. Other than those two areas, Bush hasn’t been that bad. I don’t blame him for the current recession either, except that his irresponsibility with regards to the budget hurts the governments ability to enact fiscal stimulus measures. Then again, I don’t think fiscal policy is called for anyways. Not yet at least.
All in all I consider this administration – as it stands today – as slightly below average. That may change depending on Iraq. I consider Clinton slightly (very slight) above average, Bush I above average, Reagan average, and so on. But that’s just my perspective.
Katrina was not and never was a Federal problem, LA’s state govt. failed
It’ll be interesting to see if the W Administration over history truly rivals or surpasses the Harding and Carter Administrations. When I say history I mean objective analysis of everything. Anyway CZ thanks for posting. I liked it.Some facts,some personal touches good job.
It is really hard to look at things “objectively” when you’re talking about a significant political leader. I suppose you could use objective criteria (like polls, economic indicators, statistics, etc.), but ultimately I think it’s going to come down to popular consensus, and whether you’re talking about things from an American perspective or a global perspective. Although in both of the latter categories, it doesn’t look good for Bush, unless you’re asking the Albanians.
The notion that Katrina was Bush’s failure is laughable. As laughable as calling Reagan’s terms average while Clinton’s slightly above average. If you think I’m wrong, we will see the national reaction to Bill Clinton when he passes. The way he looked the other day, we shouldn’t have to wait long.
New Orleans: seventy years of corrupt Dimocrats as mayor, including a great majority of Dimocratic Senators and Congressman, etc… had little to do with it, of course. People who couldn’t fend for themselves due to gov’t dependence, including welfare and gov’t housing, had nothing to do with, of course. The fact that New Orleans was woefully unprepared though they had at least 40 years of warning this would happen had nothing to do with it, of course. The fact that the current mayor of New Orleans was an abject failure during the flight had nothing to do with it, of course. Then the fools re-elected him. Poor choices generally lead to bad results, private or public.
I suppose Bush is also at fault that New Orleans continues to proudly carry the mantle of murder capital of the U.S.? Residents I know from New Orleans know better. You won’t hear them blaming Bush for much. Ask the Houston residents what they think of taking New Orleans’ citizens under wraps after the hurricane. Ask them about their crime rate. But that is the national political spin…it is Bush’s fault; the one thing Dimocrats know how to do better than anyone.
I noticed Mississippi, which bore the brunt of the hurricane, has been able to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and are now on their way to recovery. Somebody here at the Chamber care to tell me why MS residents can recover but New Orleans can’t seem to manage? The answer is obvious to anyone of sound mind.
Tex- say what you want about the people of N.O., but it’s hard to dispute the fact that Bush’s handling of the disaster was absolutely disgraceful. Nothing “laughable” about it. From his guitar-strumming distractions to “heckuva job” to promises that he didn’t keep, Bush solidified his status as the leader who slept at the switch. The only thing you can really give him credit for is having the stones to finally own up to it.
Great post. The Bush administrations three main failings are strategy, diplomacy and ideology but for ll his administrations and his personal faults, can anyone seriously see Clinton or Gore not invading Afghanistan or passing up on the opportunity to attack Iraq? I agree he has damaged America not destroyed it but I doubt America will regain what it lost in Iraq: the air of invincibility. I also think there is a whole generation that will have seen their county fail to win, what were supposed to be, two easy wars.
hey cz!
all i can say is that i won’t be able to breathe any easier until january 21, 2009.
Chenzhen,
Your objectivity about Bush is highly questionable. In fact, I find you so blatantly unfair in judgment that it colors my entire opinion of you and your blog. Your bias concerning anything Bush overwhelms many of the good points you make.
As usual, you point the fingers at Republican politicians while seemingly excusing your Dimocratic leaders who have run the entire town and state for most of the 20th and 21st century. But the real fingers should be pointed at the ineptness of the town itself. Like I said, Mississippi has performed far more admirably with far less assistance.
Why do you and your ilk think government, especially one as inept as ours, to be the answer to all of our problems? Do you really believe Ray Nagin to be the least bit capable? He’s a joke.
You, of all people, should realize that government is seldom the answer.
Tex- Did you read my post? Anyway, compared to others, I’ve cut Bush more slack on Katrina. I’m inclined to agree with you, in that there were failures at every level, and Nagin certainly doesn’t emerge from this as some sort of hero. Bashing Bush’s response doesn’t imply exoneration for the others, so you shouldn’t just assume that.
Steph- I’m guessing that Gore would have invaded Afghanistan but not Iraq. But I agree with you that we’ll be paying for the Iraq debacle in one way or another for a long, long time.
I hate Hillary Stalin Clinton!
I really can’t stand her or anything she does or stands for. She is absolutely the worst president we have ever had in the history of our republic! She has completely broken the back of the middle class and she’s not able to pay for all of the free stuff that she has promised everyone in order to get elected. The economy is in shambles…and she wants to raise taxes! The Middle East is far worse then it ever was and Iran now has nuclear weapons and is threatening everyone. Putin has seized control of most of the worlds natural resources. And all Hillary can do is sit in the Oval Office and cry. She’s a complete failure!
Oh…sorry. This is for next year. I’m just practicing talking like Chen does for the eventuality of a Hillary victory.
I say again,,,,, Katrina is not a Bush failure, it is a falure of the Dem administration in LA,,,,
The state and insurance companies should have been held more accountable, not to mention the looters, rapist and thugs that stood around waiting on the gub’ment to save them…
Sage- I really hope you’re wrong, but you’re gonna need more practice. 🙂
Chen,
Sage may have exaggerated the point but the point is made nonetheless. That is about how comprehensive and deep some of your posts sound because of your overwhelming Bush hatred. It’s the equivalent of the jack booted thugs calling Hillary Rotten a lesbian, a murderer, etc…
If you want to prove me and other neocons or whatever the semantic flavor of the day wrong, do this. You and your backers have been rooting for Obama, the “agent of change” and identified him as the strongest candidate. Why don’t you give us your talking points about what you would like Obama to change and the strategy you believe Obama should employ to make those changes. Be specific – if you want “world peace” tell us exactly how Obama should facilitate the peace and with whom. If you want to repair America’s “image”, tell us exactly how you plan to do that. If you think the U.S. economy in dire straights, tell us what you think needs to be modified and explain how Obama should provide the means to modify. If you think healthcare a mess and it is, tell us how Obama or Hillary should plan to fix the mess. To simplify, pick one issue if you like.
I will show you how easy talking points are to shoot down but it requires you go first. I’m thinking this is going to be a lot tougher on you than me because first you’re going to need the details from the agent. I don’t think there are any – but if so, I am betting I can easily poke holes in the progressive agenda showing how bankrupt and dishonest Obama or Hillary’s programs are, and do it without ad hominem.
Will you take the challenge? 🙂
Tex- I apologize if this post sounds a little superficial, but I really don’t want to rehash everything I’ve posted over the last 4 years regarding Bush. That’s why I linked back to that other site, because it provides background and is more comprehensive. I’ve always tried to make an effort to back it up. But the main point of this post was that I’ve softened my tone and am hopeful, so I think it’s kind of ironic that you’re calling me out on “overwhelming Bush hatred”. I call it as I see it over here, and the way I see it, Bush sucks. It doesn’t mean that I haven’t taken my shots at the Dems, or that I’m so blinded by partisanship that I can’t give Bush credit for anything.
Re: Obama – Of course I’m up to the challenge. That’s what the Chamber is all about. I’m thinking what I’ll do is start a series of posts (probably tonight, as I have to head off to work pretty soon) like “Why Obama” or something like that and you can chime right in if you want to. I was planning on expanding on the reasoning for my endorsement anyway, so thanks for the reminder.
BTW- I’m glad to see that you’re not Sage’s sockpuppet (or vise versa). I’ll admit that I actually checked on it though, mainly because of writing style.
Chen,
Nope. I don’t do sockpuppets…no puppet, same name. One thing I have always liked about you that I can’t say about most progressives (and far too many conservatives) is that I believe you to be generally honest. You should expect the same from me.
As far as rehashing, I haven’t read much of your historical take about Bush – if you’ve done so, forgive me. But agreeing for a moment Bush is past and Obama present, I would really be interested on anyone’s take about Obama. To me, Obama appears an articulate but empty suit with little or no accomplishment to speak of – in fact, about the only thing that I see he has appealing (besides he makes nice speeches and looks good) is he’s not Hillary. Perhaps that is enough for the Dimocratic party.
It might surprise you that I never thought Bush truly accomplished as governor of Texas and far from the most qualified Republican Presidential candidate. The last six elections have been the lessor of two evils. Problem is, the people I most admire on my side never want to run for office – and I can’t really blame them.
I often lament the whole idea of “sides”, and sometimes I think we may be better off if everyone just ran as independents. I’m sure there has been much discussion over abolishing political parties, and it’s probably a topic for another thread. It’s this dynamic of a kind of loyalty that is almost tribal that I consider potentially dangerous. But anyway, Care to share who?
Care to share who?
Most of my favorites are not even politicians…if I had to pick one I really like that is even remotely affiliated with politics (albeit military politics) it would be Norman Schwarzkopf.
If I had to pick my favorite politician to lead? Senator Tom Coburn, (R-OK) also lovingly known as Dr. No by both sides of the political aisle. And being that Senator Tom just endorsed McCain for Pres., now I even question his judgment.
I agree with you on picking sides – it is tribal and why I refused to give any funding for political influence. Trust me, there are many Repubs I disdain and I have actually called for their removal by popular vote: (Chuck Hagel, Trent Lott, Lindsey Graham to name a few).
I actually think “sides” could better be defined by the word “political philosophy.” Just because there is the ‘R’ beside a candidate doesn’t necessarily mean I approve. I dislike moderate Republicans more so than I do all but a handful of lefty Dimocrats.
Tex,
What accomplishments had Bush had before he got into office?
Ruining two companies, trading Sammy Sosa fromt the Rangers, and doing nothing but executing people as governor isn’t much in the way of accomplishments in my books.
And for everyone blaming the people of New Orleans for the failures oif the government during Katrina, the Army Corps of Engineers already accepted fault for the flooding…
And I would really like to know how anyone who hasn’t been to New Orleans or Mississippi since Katrina can comment about the recovery process. The people of New Orleans are recovering just as quickly as the people in Miss…which is slow, but it is happening none the less. The people are only suing for gov. money because the Army Corps of Engineers admitted fault and accepted liability for the flooding.
Sliquid,
And I would really like to know how anyone who hasn’t been to New Orleans or Mississippi since Katrina can comment about the recovery process. The people of New Orleans are recovering just as quickly as the people in Miss…which is slow, but it is happening none the less. The people are only suing for gov. money because the Army Corps of Engineers admitted fault and accepted liability for the flooding.
Oh, I think you are preaching to the choir about ‘leans and being completely untruthful to boot. ‘Fraid I’ve been there numerous times since as I go to Houma six times a year and stop by for a couple of days at the office. I get the local tour. Add to the fact my children volunteered in the cleanup thru Church, if that’s your idea of recovery, best wishes. I thought it looked third world after zillions spent. Complete chaos and fiasco – totally mismanaged even with all the sporting events pumped into that sewer.
Bush was Governor one of the two fastest growing states in the nation, though really I’m just pulling your chain concerning that one. I’m glad he executed murders, including Karla Faye Tucker. They deserved it.
How is Illinois doing with their economy? (give you a heads up; one of the worst and the crime rate is now rivaling N.O.). Sammy Sosa is a dope head, cheat and rube. Perhaps Bush was prophetic…he should have executed Sammy too.
Did I miss anything?
Bush was Governor one of the two fastest growing states in the nation, though really I’m just pulling your chain concerning that one.
Mea Culpa…4th fastest growing state; NV, AZ, GA were faster thru the 90’s.
Re: Bush as governor- I’m going to try to find the youtube vid I watched the other day, which was basically a “then and now” comparison on Bush’s speaking and debating skills. It was amazing. When Bush was running for governor, he actually put together sentences (with big words and everything), made good points, and overall didn’t sound like a complete dope. You almost have to wonder what the hell happened to him, ’cause it was like watching a completely different person.
Update: found it.
Chenzhen, I’ve said this before other places. I’m not sure George Bush really wanted to be President. I think it was almost an endorsement and expectancy from the family legacy. Unlike the Clintons or even George Bush the Elder, I don’t W. is a political animal.
I really think what you see down on the ranch in Crawford is what you would get if Bush were left to his own choices. Bush may be simple as is his wife – though I think he is far from stupid as most lefties attest. You don’t get your MBA from Harvard and fly jets if you’re dumb.
But as far as speaking, and I know these are prepared speeches. But the one Jr. gave immediately after 9/11 is still the best speech (from the political realm) I’ve ever heard. G.W. can perform when the need requires. Why he continues the good old boy routine is your guess. I find myself cringing when he does it in the public forum.
Yea, he should have just spared us the honor.
testing…
Where’s my damn gravatar? Help Chen help! You’ve got a potential dumba** here trying to post his gravatar!
Is there something in the code I need to input? Looking thru the basics it looks like the attributes are established by you.
Okay, you leftie young punks. What am I doing wrong?
Tex- As long as you enter the same email you used to register with gravitar, it should work. Keep in mind that you may have to refresh your browser cache for it to show up on your computer.
I’ll try this one more time. Thanks for the help Chen. You’re alright, I don’t care what LGF said about you…
(that’s a joke for you libs)
My work computer has one of those web filter thingys, and one of the side effects is I can’t see any avatars…so I dunno if its working or not. lol
Geez Chen, if you were beat to a pulp on a daily basis by the rabid lefties for seven straight years you’d develop pre-senile dementia also.
Sage- Like who, Helen Thomas? lol Bush is a living and breathing case for 1-term limits, one could conclude.
No Chen- You!
You and Kos and the PuffHo’s and the MSM and the rest of the lefties made it a sport to beat this man down every minute of every day since he took office.
Then, after the man is a shell of what he was, say 10 years ago, you have the audacity to say that ‘you kinda feel sorry for him’.
I hated it when the far Right went after Clinton and beat up on him constantly. I didn’t participate in that foolishness and I condemned it every time I heard it. And I also hate it when the far Left (and the center Left for that matter) beat up on Bush for the past 7 years. Ever since I’ve known you Chen, you’ve been right in the thick of the Bush bashing. Now that you and your ilk have reduced the man to a quivering jellyfish you say you feel sorry for him. You know what…save your sentiments. You don’t feel sorry for the man at all. If anything, what you’re feeling may be a little guilt. After all, I’ve always considered you to be a man with somewhat of a conscience and a little bit of humanity, otherwise I wouldn’t still be talking to you.
You know what really gets me the most about Bush? All the names he’s been called by the Lefties…Fascist, Nazi, Bush-Hitler, baby killer, stupid, idiot…ect. He has never stooped to the same level. He’s never taken pot shots at the Left or responded in kind. He’s always been gracious to those who would want to hang him from the nearest tree. He’s always treated his opponents with respect.
Like I said before, I had a problem with the way the far Right treated Clinton and it took me quite a while to forgive them. The Left has treated Bush 10 times worse. They are meaner, angrier, more spiteful and more rabid than anything I’ve ever seen from the Right. I will probably never forgive them.
Well, the reason why i threw Helen Thomas out there is because I doubt he reads anything that myself, Kos HuffPo, etc. have posted. He’s got his little bubble, and people like Thomas are one of the privileged few people out there who have challenged him directly.
Anyway, I don’t remember resorting to juvenile name-calling, but it’s hard to imagine that someone who struts around with the “most powerful cowboy in the world” persona would succumb to such things. At least, one would hope that someone qualified to be a US president wouldn’t.
On the other hand, have you considered that some of the more adult-phrased criticisms would be hitting home because they’re actually legitimate, or that involuntarily he’s poppin blood vessels because he can’t handle the realization that he’s getting caught in his own BS?
Nah.
It could simply be a natural biological condition, ya know.
“if that’s your idea of recovery, best wishes. I thought it looked third world after zillions spent. Complete chaos and fiasco – totally mismanaged even with all the sporting events pumped into that sewer.”
It’s not perfect no doubt, but trying to compare the recovery of a city like New Orleans to the recovery of a couple of small beach front cities along the Miss. coast is intellectually dishonest. Why would anyone think that repairing a city like N.O. would be easier than repairing a city like Biloxi, that is only comprised of a few casino’s and hotels? What do you expect?
“Bush was Governor one of the two fastest growing states in the nation, though really I’m just pulling your chain concerning that one. I’m glad he executed murders, including Karla Faye Tucker. They deserved it.”
Right, I must have missed the part in th bible where it states that killing is okay if they deserve it.
“How is Illinois doing with their economy? (give you a heads up; one of the worst and the crime rate is now rivaling N.O.).”
What does the crime rate have to do with the economy?
Is Obama the governor of Illinois?
I guess I’m missing your point here.
Right, I must have missed the part in th bible where it states that killing is okay if they deserve it.
Yes, I believe you did. Ever taken a stroll thru Exodus, Leviticus, or Deuteronomy? Was it not Christ who said, “the law still holds – one jot or one tittle will by no means pass?” Surely you’re not one of these types who says that putting a murdering thug to death is also the same as murdering an innocent. If so, I’m doubting your theology. And as a Christian, I’ll shoot that down very quickly using only the O.T., if you what you wish to debate and use as reference. I can do the same with the N.T.
What I witnessed of the hurricane damage in MS was much worse than what I saw in LA. Much worse…they took the brunt of both the wind and storm surge up and down the coast. New Orleans would have been practically spared had not been for the breach. And there is now a world of difference in repair.
My point was Obama has not been a very effective Senator – locally or nationally. Can you give me a list of his accomplishments? You guys only brag point is how he voted for Iraq? Is that it? What makes you think he will then be an effective President? While we can debate how effective Bush was a governor, he did carry his own state by a very wide margin while running for President. I guess most Texans don’t agree with your assessment.
Tex-
I’m not sure if accomplishments are the best guage with which you measure the possible effectiveness of a president. There certainly wasn’t anything that special about what Reagan had done before being elected in 1980, yet he is idolized more than any other modern president. Bush was also a state governor, and he’s widely considered a poor president.
It’s having ideas and the ability to inspire action on them that would rank higher I think.
Quite the contrary Chen, California was thru the 60’s and 70’s the most prominent and powerful state in the nation, without question. At the time of Reagan’s tenure, California’s economy was so large, it would have ranked as the 7th largest on earth. Now, it’s state financial situation is shall we say questionable.
If you look at the nation, you will note that those states having no personal income tax (Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington and Wyoming) are actually doing pretty well in comparison. Two others, New Hampshire and Tennessee, tax only dividend and interest income. I can’t speak for NH as I really don’t know their situation – though they have had a huge influx of Mass residents recently. But TN has brought in some nice business the last 10-15 years.
I mention this only because I believe states such as Texas are actually the most successful due not to strength of their government but a lack thereof. Reagan campaign on less federal intervention. We can argue if state government is really responsible for economic success. I happen to be of the belief that government really has little to with the corporate engine and small businesses that drive free enterprise, and gov’t can only assist by staying out of the way and keeping taxes low. But the fact Reagan did govern during the most prominent time of the California economy at least provides the perception that he knew what he was doing before ever entering office.
Harry Truman at one time was also considered a “poor” President. 50 years hence, he’s looked at as a pretty good one. You may be very surprised 20-30 years from now what history writes of Bush. As we speak, your former favorite and highly rated by the MSM, Bill Clinton, is beginning to get trashed and his popularity is really beginning to wane.
I do agree having ideas and ability to inspire action is the most important Presidential quality. Forgetting the inspiration for one moment (Obama is charismatic for some such as yourself; certainly not for me), what are Obama’s big ideas? I’ve yet to hear a one.
“Yes, I believe you did. Ever taken a stroll thru Exodus, Leviticus, or Deuteronomy? Was it not Christ who said, “the law still holds – one jot or one tittle will by no means pass?” Surely you’re not one of these types who says that putting a murdering thug to death is also the same as murdering an innocent. If so, I’m doubting your theology. And as a Christian, I’ll shoot that down very quickly using only the O.T., if you what you wish to debate and use as reference. I can do the same with the N.T.”
No, I think you just missed the point. I think it’s hypocritical to say that’s it’s okay to kill people as long as it’s on your terms, all while claiming to be a man of god (as Bush did). Last time I checked, your religion stated that it was up to God to judge people, so if they rot in jail for life, they are still being punished when they die… Personally I don’t care. I don’t believe in God. I don’t claim abortion is wrong, but killing is okay. I guess I don’t see the difference between killing someone as a form of “legal” revenge and killing for fun, regardless of who it is. Blood lust does nothing for me. but I digress…
“What I witnessed of the hurricane damage in MS was much worse than what I saw in LA. Much worse…they took the brunt of both the wind and storm surge up and down the coast. New Orleans would have been practically spared had not been for the breach. And there is now a world of difference in repair.”
I’m sorry but this is a load of crap. New Orleans and the surrounding area got hit just as hard as Miss. did. The only difference was the storm surge. Saying one was so much worse than the other is b.s. They were both demolished, just in different ways. I’m sure seeing a walmart flattened gives you a different perspective of damage when compared to the ones in New Orleans that were under 12 feet of water instead, but it doesn’t make one worse than the other. They are both totaled out…complete losses.
But as I stated before, you can’t judge the recovery process the same. You cannot compare the recovery of a metropolitan port city, with the recovery of an individual casino town with far less people and buildings. It’s ridiculous. There were less people living in a large space in Miss. More people living in a tighter space in New Orleans. It’s going to take longer to fix New Orleans.it’s a simple fact.
“My point was Obama has not been a very effective Senator – locally or nationally. Can you give me a list of his accomplishments? You guys only brag point is how he voted for Iraq? Is that it? What makes you think he will then be an effective President? While we can debate how effective Bush was a governor, he did carry his own state by a very wide margin while running for President. I guess most Texans don’t agree with your assessment.”
Show me one congresman or senator who has done much in one term.
But last time I checked you don’t do it alone. The big question is, is his judgement of people worht a damn? If he picks the right people to run with him, and to support him, then he can go far. Just look at Bush. He didn’t get here because he is smart. He got here because he knew who to pick…or they picked him.
Sliquid,
Since this is Chen’s site, I’ll mind my manners but that last post was so full of holes, I wouldn’t even know where to star. So I’ll just say this.
Since I believe in an infallible God and you don’t, I believe in His infallible word and you don’t; I think New Orleans should point the finger right at itself; you think George Bush is to blame; I believe you are wrong on virtually every issue and you think likewise of me, why bother to debate? But one small comment…
Show me one congresman or senator who has done much in one term.
I’m not sure I could. So what makes you think Obama is qualified for a higher office which started this entire conversation? I’m still waiting for any of you to give me a legitimate reason why Obama is even a good Senator because if all you can say to support your argument is: But last time I checked you don’t do it alone. The big question is, is his judgement of people worht a damn? If he picks the right people to run with him, and to support him, then he can go far… wouldn’t any of us be as equally qualified?
LOL Aw C’mon! I wanted to whip out the ad hominem emblem again! j/k Nice work.
Damn. Remember Fantasy Congress Sliq? Most of the productive people don’t run for pres lol.
Tex,
I’d just like to point out, that not once did I say it was George W. Bush’s fault.
Katrina hit – No ones fault.
The issue of flooding in New Orleans is the Army Coprs of Engineers fault…they ADMITTED that much.
The federal response was horrible. Bush’s fault? Nope. He had a bunch of idiots handling things. They are more to blame along with the local government.
Rebuilding in New Orleans has been slow.
G dubs fault- No.
The people who are being f’ed over by the insurance companies? No
The people who are trying to rebuild with what little money they have? No.
This is my whole point. You guys started in about how it’s all the fault of the people of New Orleans. Last time I checked, and when I was living there, I/we had no control over what the local and federal government did. None what so ever.
So for you to blame people like my aunts and uncles, for the fact that it takes longer than a year to rebuild a city, is irrational and ignorant.
And by all means, poke whatever holes you want to. I feel my argument can stand up to the scrutiny. I fully stand by my opinion that you can’t rebuild an entire port city nearly as fast as you can a po-dunk town, and blaming the citizens for that won’t do anyone any good…
“I believe you are wrong on virtually every issue and you think likewise of me, why bother to debate?”
So let me get this straight.
You think it’s wrong that I feel you can’t build a city as fast as a town?
Really?!?
So that means we can’t debate over this?
lol.
I know you’re not giving up that easy.
I mean, isn’t that the point of a debate? I can sit here and hi-five Chen all day when I agree with him, but it makes for boring reading. The whole point of debating is to share your opinions with someone who doens’t think the same way as you and gain a better understanding and hopefully learn something.
To just say, well I don’t agree with you, so it’s pointless arguing with you is mighty bullheaded and obtuse. By just reading a few of your posts I fugured you to be better than that.
Sliquid,
Mea culpa. I’ve been arguing with you about Bush and you didn’t say a thing. No wonder you were a little confused. I have you confused with the first post. Being new here, I need to be more careful in whom I am addressing. I generally only skin Chen alive because if he’s nothing else, he has one terribly thick hide.
My point about a debate, or lack thereof, is really at the heart of most every issue and explains our differences – your perspective is based on a completely secular belief; mine just the opposite.
Because of that, there are a few things we could probably agree about of importance Look at the bright side. You and Chen voting one way, me the other, you got me beat 2-1.
Oh, I’m saving that one!
Tex,
Just because we don’t share the same belief system, doesn’t mean we both can’t have something in common or can’t see eye to eye on anything. I’m sure if you opened up a little you could actually learn something new. That’s why I like to debate with people like you.
And just because I don’t believe in your god or faith, doesn’t mean I’m a bad person that has no moral compass or doesn’t know what’s right or wrong…
Chen, LOL. You’re like a smiley rubber ball. I bounce you against the wall, floor, or ceiling and about the time I get my hand up, you’re back in my face still smiling. How can I not like somebody like that? It’s actually a very admirable quality…one I wish I had.
Sliquid,
And just because I don’t believe in your god or faith, doesn’t mean I’m a bad person that has no moral compass or doesn’t know what’s right or wrong…
Certainly not – it may be very possible that you’re a much better person than I am. But IMHO, being good or even better still isn’t good enough.
As far as the moral compass, if you have no absolute to measure by, then who is to say what is right and what is wrong? It’s like saying all opinions are of equal value.
Here’s the irony: That actually was the defense Nazi Germany used in the Nuremberg trials that for a time thru the litigators for a loop. That is: “who are you to tell us what is right and what is wrong?” That’s an extreme example and I certainly am not equating your thought process to a Nazi.
However, if opening up means compromising principles, no can do.
“As far as the moral compass, if you have no absolute to measure by, then who is to say what is right and what is wrong? It’s like saying all opinions are of equal value.”
That’s a very wrong cop-out, and pretty insulting.
Just because I don’t think I will be judged by your god, doesn’t mean that I don’t know right from wrong or can’t base that off of anything. You don’t need god or a religion to tell you that murder is bad and stealing is wrong. I’m not Christian, but the saying “do unto others” is something I live by. I know my right from wrong isn’t much different than yours when it comes to that simple creed.
As far as opening up, I am only insinuating that you open your mind up a little to the possibility that you could be wrong or at least you could learn something from someone different. It seems you automatically have a preconcieved notion about people who post with a different viewpoint or religion, which keeps you from actually listening to thier view point. To me it’s a close minded way to be, but if not being closed minded comprimises your values, then I understand. Don’t think about things from a different view point. It’s your right. I won’t infringe on that. =)
Tex-
Well, some may say that you can reason your way to the answer.
That’s a very wrong cop-out, and pretty insulting.
Just because I don’t think I will be judged by your god, doesn’t mean that I don’t know right from wrong or can’t base that off of anything. You don’t need god or a religion to tell you that murder is bad and stealing is wrong. I’m not Christian, but the saying “do unto others” is something I live by. I know my right from wrong isn’t much different than yours when it comes to that simple creed.
Sliquid, out of respect for Chen and the purpose of his blog, I’m not going to let this go much further on my behalf. I don’t want to appear as if I’m here proselytizing nor do I really want to offend further. That’s not my purpose for participating. So I will try to do this only once – but this one time it is required for my explanation. Forgive me, Chen and I ask for a little leeway this one time.
I think my comment is construed by you as insulting because it hits a little too close to home for your comfort. If you were in my place for one moment, you would recognize that just beause someone “feels” they won’t be judged doesn’t change the fact I believe they will. That’s simply what Christians believe Sliquid and what we were taught.
My only preconceived notion concerning you is that you and I will always have a very different viewpoint and opinion concerning most things of real substance because of who we believe God, more specifically Jesus Christ, to be. Your’s will almost always be more inclusive than mine. It is what separates our opinion and it always will because our opinions are formulated very differently. You formulate by your set of rules; I do by mine. That does not mean in any sense you are not a good person. There are many ways to be “good.” I have no doubt most people on this blog think of themselves as good.
It may surprise you that I’m not sure I consider who wins the Presidency really all that substantive. If I really thought a President and his or her respective Congress could change the moral rot of this culture, I might get a whole lot more excited about a political race. Certainly none of these candidates, either party, is charismatic or qualified enough to change the direction of this country.
America is broke; the political system is broke; the people are divided; we all know it. But to me that’s just a symptom of the real problem. And IMHO, it’s a matter of time before either real change will be required or we will simply fade into obscurity as a historical interest just like the Roman Empire did, I don’t care who controls politics.
Chen, Well, some may say that you can reason your way to the answer.
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche also said much the sort. Of course, at the age of 49, he suffered a breakdown and due to a mental illness, spent the last 11 years in an insane asylum.
While Kant an interesting read, I never put a great deal of faith in secular philosophers…though aware Kant believed in some manifestation of God, his thinking was a little too esoteric for my tastes.
“I think my comment is construed by you as insulting because it hits a little too close to home for your comfort.”
I wouldn’t put it that way. It’s construed as insulting because I believe in the power of people or myself, over the power of faith or a metaphysical being that may or may not be real. I feel as a man with a brain, I can make my own choices and they can be based in “good” with out a higher power.
It’s like this. When I tell someone that I don’t believe in God, they almost always say they will pray for me. That insults me because it shows they are taking pity on me solely based off of their beliefs, and not any actual facts. If you choose to make a belief a fact, then you will end up offending someone, while not even knowing it…It’s like calling someone stupid, without calling them stupid.
“America is broke; the political system is broke; the people are divided; we all know it. But to me that’s just a symptom of the real problem.”
I agree mostly. It’s all broke. No doubt. But are you saying that Christ would fix it? Isn’t that just passing the buck? Shoudln’t we as people take responsibility and try to work through our differences to find a better way?
I respect your opinion on this, it just seems to me, that if you are going to use your religion as a road block for listening to others, then you are going to do more harm than good. By basically shunning someone’s opinion, simply because their belief system is different, you ae helping to create that divide you speak of.
You see, I’m open ears. I understand your position and I can respect it, and where you are coming from. I won’t ever say that just because your beliefs are different than mine, there is just no middle ground for us to come together.
Oh and Tex, I’m sure Chen doesn’t mind the dialogue.
That’s the the whole point of the site…lol
Yea I really only delete obvious spam or unhinged advocations of violence. Oh, I did ban one really nasty troll that had nothing to offer other than 10,000-word copy/pasted filth laced with obscenities. So by all means, speak your mind.
/Of course, everyone runs the risk (or honor) of having one of my shiny new emblems attached to their post, however. 😛
BTW- I’m off to see Rambo, so I’ll BBL.
Sliquid,
I respect your opinion on this, it just seems to me, that if you are going to use your religion as a road block for listening to others, then you are going to do more harm than good. By basically shunning someone’s opinion, simply because their belief system is different, you ae helping to create that divide you speak of.
There’s a difference between shunning and disagreeing. If I shunned you, I wouldn’t be bothering to explain my points. I simply don’t accept what you’re saying. I’m tolerant but not accepting. And there’s a big difference.
But, I do agree with you about one thing. The club I belong to is exclusive and there’s no doubt my beliefs divisive. So was Christ as was His intent.
Hopefully, that wouldn’t conflict with being us friendly. My disagreeing with you should not be interpreted as disliking you. In fact, I find you and many here like Chen most interesting and I enjoy our dialogue. Nothing is more boring than everyone parroting the previous post. The minute everyone starts sounding like “Tex”, I’m gone.
Sorry Sliquid,
I didn’t even answer your question:
I agree mostly. It’s all broke. No doubt. But are you saying that Christ would fix it? Isn’t that just passing the buck? Shoudln’t we as people take responsibility and try to work through our differences to find a better way?
I’m saying Christ is the only one who can make it perfect. The Jews, as I’m always hesitant to speak for another, would probably state only Yahweh represents perfection; the Muslim’s Allah. As Christians, we believe that Yahweh and Christ are One and the same.
But to your question, yes I believe we all should strive to take responsibility to make it better. For me, Republicans used to have better ideas of how to get there.
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