Why Obama, Part IV: Faith
February 1, 2008For the fourth installment of the Chamber’s Why Obama series, I’ve picked the faith in politics issue. The same format applies; this is right from the Obama website. The selection of this topic was inspired by comments that arose in Part II, as well as posts I’ve stumbled upon elsewhere in the blogosphere. For this thread, I will begin with a section from Obama’s “Call to Renewal” speech (6/28/06):
Because when we ignore the debate about what it means to be a good Christian or Muslim or Jew; when we discuss religion only in the negative sense of where or how it should not be practiced, rather than in the positive sense of what it tells us about our obligations towards one another; when we shy away from religious venues and religious broadcasts because we assume that we will be unwelcome – others will fill the vacuum, those with the most insular views of faith, or those who cynically use religion to justify partisan ends.
In other words, if we don’t reach out to evangelical Christians and other religious Americans and tell them what we stand for, then the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons and Alan Keyeses will continue to hold sway.
More fundamentally, the discomfort of some progressives with any hint of religion has often prevented us from effectively addressing issues in moral terms. Some of the problem here is rhetorical – if we scrub language of all religious content, we forfeit the imagery and terminology through which millions of Americans understand both their personal morality and social justice.
I know I don’t talk about religion a whole lot around the Chamber. I run a pretty secular ship, probably because I don’t consider myself to be particularly religious. That, and I don’t have anything against those who are (even though I have been told more than once that my soul awaits eternal damnation). I’ve always considered myself to be open-minded and non-judgmental when it comes to other’s faiths. Moreover, I’ve made an effort to reach across the blogosphere’s religious divides and communicate to my fellow netizens on a human level; an inclusion of those from different religious backgrounds (with the WPPBA). I can’t help but think that Obama and I are on the same wavelength here.
I’d also like to use this thread to debate the relevancy of Obama’s personal religious background, whether it be accusations that he was indoctrinated in a madrassa, or his church affiliation. Also, if anyone has a guess at how many times righty blogs have attempted to appeal to Islamophobes by selectively using Obama’s middle name (Hussein) when addressing him, post it here.
Oh, and I almost forgot. I might as well take the opportunity to send a pingback out to Chamber visitor and profiled flame warrior Liberal Ass Kicker , founder of the blog OsamaLovesObama.com.
ChenZhen's Chamber 
One of the best quotes I’ve ever seen to show how gullible and ignorant liberals are:
In other words, if we don’t reach out to evangelical Christians and other religious Americans and tell them what we stand for, then the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons and Alan Keyeses will continue to hold sway.
The fact many of you loons actually think Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson are significant leaders in the Evangelical community continues to amuse me. Many of you watch too much TV and if you happen to believe the quote above, are no different than the obvious superficiality of the MSM.
So I suppose that Dennis Kucinich and Al Sharpton are leaders of the Dimocratic party?
Hi there, nice blog entry. His religous beliefs and affiliations seem to be tempered by a full grasp of the law, and an ability to distinguish between, the rule of law, civil liberties and social/moral policy. It’s only my opinion but that is VERY necessary. To understand that the law should always uphold an idividuals civil liberties even if it doesn’t fit with your religous beliefs. That’s how I see him on this issue and why he is claiming a Christian faith but simultaneously is pro-choice.
The law has to or should protect the civil liberties of everyone, and at times must draw some conclusions and err on the side of caution, there is no question as to the living status of the woman who is choosing.
Personally as a Christian, I grew into this opinion over time, it wasn’t easy. But now I understand that this is a reasonable interpretation. If God himself doesn’t force himself on anyone, who are we to do so?
Choice is an essential theme in the Christian faith.
Looking forward I think a president who can lead from this perspective will do well in many areas nationally and domestic.
Tex- So who are significant leaders in the evangelical community?
That’s right I founded it!
Obama is a mulsum and he wants to take over the country for Al Quaeda! If he is not working for Osama Bin Laden, then tell me, why won’t he come out and say “I am not working for Bin Laden”? Because he can’t say that. It is against the muslum honor code or something, same thing where you have to kill your sister if she is pretty or something.
I happen to have special information given to me by God about Hillary, Obama, and how the Republicans are going to win the next election.
I will be talking about it on my site soon, but only when God gives me the go ahead. He told me to wait until he was ready… probably wants to sneak up on Obama.
The Evangelical community is made up of at least 50-60MM people, and ironically not all politically conservative. At least not how I would define politically conservative. Most of the powerful, prominent and persuasive spiritual leaders are not really household names. Here’s some that you may or may not be familiar with: most whom I consider having large followings and varying degrees of influence. These are interdenominational, some radio and tv personalities and note that I would also consider many Catholics as Evangelical in nature. That list isn’t just specifically reserved for Protestants. Evangelism to me means professing the name Jesus Christ as Lord and carrying on with the Great Commission; pretty simple.
Famous 20th/21st Century Evangelical Spiritual Leaders
(1) Billy Graham
(2) Franklin Graham
(3) Anne Graham Lotz
(4) Janet Parshall
(5) Adrian Rogers *
(6) D. James Kennedy *
(7) James Dobson
(8) Luis Palau
(9) Chuck Swindoll
(10) Hendrik “Hank” Hanegraaff
(11) Josh McDowell
(12) David Jeremiah
(13) Charles Stanley
(14) Philip Yancey
(15) Chuck Colson
(16) Rick Warren
(17) Richard Land
That is just off the top of my head and you’ll note with maybe the exception of James Dobson or Chuck Colson, hardly ever mentioned in political circles. I could probably list a hundred others if I needed to and not one would be Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson, the latter I actually think a loon and embarrassment.
And just for grins…
A list of famous Evangelical Christian Athletes
Bobby Bowden
Dennis Byrd
Vince Carter
Bob Christian
Randall Cunningham
Joe Gibbs
Rosie Grier
Tom Landry *
Dan Reeves
Frank Reich
Eugene Robinson
Deion Sanders
Mike Singletary
Gene Stallings
Emmitt Smith
Kurt Warner
Reggie White
Lenny Wilkens
A.C. Green
Hersey Hawkins
Meadowlark Lemon
Pete Maravich *
Dikembe Mutombo
Mark Price
David Robinson
Brett Butler
Joe Carter
Gary Carter
Darren Daulton
Dave Dravecky
Orel Herschiser
Paul Molitor
Terry Pendleton
Andy Pettitte
John Smoltz
Walt Weiss
Paul Azinger
Bernard Langer
Tom Lehman
Larry Mize
Payne Stewart *
Scott Simpson
Larry Nelson
George Foreman
Herschel Walker
Steve Largent
* – Passed away.
Tex-
Maybe that part of Obama’s point was in in a certain context, as he was referring to those Evangelicals who are mentioned in political circles? (I assume you read the whole speech)
Chen,
those with the most insular views of faith, or those who cynically use religion to justify partisan ends
You mean like almost all liberal Dimocrats? :;
I read it and my point is that the Dimocrats don’t even know who makes up the base of the Evangelicals. We are laughing at him. How are they going to know who to reach out to? This is definitely one issue where smart people see right thru…an obvious ploy because this is the reason the Dims have lost the last two Pres. elections and Obama knows it.
It’s like the issue of gun control and Dims lose this issue every time. You can’t talk religious faith and not walk the walk.
Robertson makes for an easy target and is the ultimate red herring. Obama doesn’t care about faith – it’s about winning; the real religion of the liberal Dimocratic party (power). At least Obama’s smart enough to realize that. When are we going to discuss Obama’s racist, Afro-centrist church? It’s such an inviting target.
Tex-
ummm…I posted:
Go for it. I’ll confess I’m weak on this topic, so you might teach me something here.
@Tex The district church Obama attends has a pastor that embraces and preaches the Black Value System. It is held up to imply racist positions by Obamas opponents.Politicians use of Robertson,Graham or Falwell were never red herrings. they were always cheap power plays at captive audiences.The Rights playing of Evangelicals is as bad as the Lefts playing of blacks.They both pay lip service and expect to sit back and count the votes.If a black evangelical ever runs as a D the sreams of angst will be music to my ears.
Don’t avatar me dude! I’m kinda on hiatus but found an article I thought you might enjoy.Obama relative.
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0204fs.html
You’re safe. Jeez! I don’t want to get a bad rep for this emblem thing.
While walking down the street one day a US senator is tragically hit by a truck and dies.
His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance.
“Welcome to heaven,” says St. Peter. “Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so we’re not sure what to do with you.”
“No problem, just let me in,” says the man.
“Well, I’d like to, but I have orders from higher up. What we’ll do is have you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity.”
“Really, I’ve made up my mind. I want to be in heaven,” says the senator.
“I’m sorry, but we have our rules.”
And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell. The doors open and he finds himself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of it are all his friends and other politicians who had worked with him.
Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to greet him, Shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting Rich at the expense of the people.
They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar and champagne.
Also present is the devil, who really is a very friendly guy who has a good time dancing and telling jokes. They are having such a good time that before he realizes it, it is time to go.
Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and waves while the elevator rises…
The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens on heaven where St. Peter is waiting for him.
“Now it’s time to visit heaven.”
So, 24 hours pass with the senator joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a good time and, before he realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns.
“Well, then, you’ve spent a day in hell and another in heaven. Now choose your eternity.”
The senator reflects for a minute, then he answers: “Well, I would never have said it before, I mean heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in hell.”
So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell.
Now the doors of the elevator open and he’s in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage.
He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above.
The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his shoulder. “I don’t understand,” stammers the senator. “Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate lobster and caviar, drank champagne, and danced and had a great time. Now there’s just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable. What happened?”
The devil looks at him, smiles and says, “Yesterday we were campaigning. Today you voted.”
Think about that when you pull the lever…
And I suppose, oh Wise One, you’ll tell me which candidate is heaven and which one is hell?
/nice story BTW. Did you just make that up, or was if copy/pasted from somewhere?
in2thefray,
Interesting article and one I would generally agree. The only thing I disagree is that Obama would be the easier of two candidates to defeat. I don’t think that is correct.
Personally, I am pretty sure that most conservatives I know are going to let the Dims have this one in 2008, kind of like they did in 1992. Until the Republican party can bring somebody to the table worth voting for, they will simply abstain. I think that is foolish and believe you should always vote. But I also believe the inevitable will soon be happening anyway, no matter the party.
The country is in serious trouble and no politician will save us, nor can one elected official damage the country to any appreciable degree either. Presidents are like quarterbacks. They get way too much of the credit and too much of the blame for the respective successes and failure of the country. As it always was, it will be up to its electorate to either correct the direction of this country or let it continue to slide into the abyss; and not necessarily just at the ballot box.
But there is one thing I disagree with you about, assuming that I am reading your post correctly. The statement:
The district church Obama attends has a pastor that embraces and preaches the Black Value System. It is held up to imply racist positions by Obama’s opponents.
First, I would like somebody to define to me exactly what constitutes “the black values system.” Don’t values transcend race? That is, unless your somebody like Sliquid who believes all value systems the same and of equal value as long as their not Christian. Christian values are the scourge of the earth in Sliquid’s world.
The other comment I would take umbrage with is I would certainly have to believe that if I had attended a church for 20 years that preached a message sounding a lot like what I would hear from say Rev. Al Sharpton, wishing for some pseudo-form of apartheid I guess, would that not speak volumes about how I might believe? It certainly is not a message of inclusion.
Chen,
And I suppose, oh Wise One, you’ll tell me which candidate is heaven and which one is hell?
The wise one here would tell you it is getting to the point I can’t tell much difference between the two. I’m sure hell will be a multi-party system. 🙂
Chen,
Sorry, I didn’t answer the second part of your question. It’s an old joke I had that I thought everybody might enjoy. Cut and paste from an old email.
Ooops…their/they’re!
Chen, when you going to get us a preview function? Come on man! You got a nice site here – one of the better new ones I’ve seen.
But it could use a little additional functionality. My proofreading is getting so bad…
@ Chen the avatar line was a joke at offering a non post related link.
@Tex the Black Value System is actually a real thing. None of my black friends buy into it but heh. It was authored by a Dr.Manfred Byrd.
As a parallel I put this out there. You attend a church that is all equality,rainbow flag “God is still speaking…” In general the church is otherwise pretty biblically based in doctrine.Is there a problem here ?
Tex-
I appreciate the compliment, as I’ve probably spent more time than most sprucin’ up the place visually and funtionally, but as far as a preview function goes I’m afraid I’m at the mercy of the good people at wordpress.com. It’s a free service, so I would feel out of place to complain too much about it. If I knew anything about web design and code (beyond my basic knowledge of html), I guess I could buy my own space to host the site and do whatever I want to it, but I don’t really feel comfortable with it at this point. The wp.com guys do make enhancements to the service fairly regularly, but it seems like maybe 1 out of 10 things they do directly benefits the Chamber. I’m sure there is a good reason why they haven’t done preview yet, but I couldn’t tell you what that is. I’m with you on this one though. I wouldn’t worry too much about it, I’m not much of a Grammarian because I am well aware of the handicap.
in2thefray,
In general the church is otherwise pretty biblically based in doctrine.Is there a problem here?
Yeah, I have a real problem with the mission statement from Obama’s church. But I had to giggle about my “rainbow” church. Actually, it’s pretty lilly white which I believe says volumes about the real problems in America today. Church is the most segregated part of America. Don’t think that was the Lord’s intent.
http://www.tucc.org/about.htm
Here’s a list of some of my concerns:
First, where’s the commitment to America? It’s not even mentioned. Second, Obama is not representing Africa – he’s representing us; that would be America. Third, I believe churches like this do nothing to transcend the problems of race – they actually add to emphasizing the differences. Not only do I find the emphasis of the church mission statement regarding race at odds with Christ’s message but do get concerned as to exactly what is its real intent.
Would you have a problem with George Bush’s church having a statement that read “A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO EUROPE AND ISRAEL and are a congregation which is Unashamedly White and Unapologetically Christian?” Answer honestly.
Chen,
I appreciate the compliment, as I’ve probably spent more time than most sprucin’ up the place visually and funtionally…
Actually buddy, it looks very nice. Your effort shows. Wanted you to know that. I’d rank it in my top 10 for design. And being that there’s about a zillion I’ve visited, I give you a pat on the back for job well done.
Tex- To that topic, you might get a kick out of this post. lol
/thanks again
There’s a difference Tex. The blacks in America were under siege for many decades. Their culture and community destroyed by the whites’ racist oppresion. The task of American blacks since emancipation and civil rights has been to rebuild that culture and community. Black churches play a part in that task. As long as theres nothing malicious or hostile in that mission statement I see nothing wrong with it
The blacks in America were under siege for many decades. Their culture and community destroyed by the whites’ racist oppresion.
True – but that was many decades ago. To anyone less than 50 and white, that statement is meaningless. Besides, is it then okay for any race to form their own community with their own set of values? Better be careful in your assessment. South Africa and the former Yugoslavia tried that and it proved to be a disaster.
I was under the impression that we were supposed to be united? And I challenge someone to show me one place in modern history where some race, in this case white, have done more, spent more, and conceded more in their apology.
What sickens me is this presumed white guilt. If I were black, I would find this phony sympathy that has left much of the black community in poverty to be offensive. Every 4 years, liberal whites crawl out of the woodwork to pander for votes. It’s pitiful.
You know King (while I am watching the ballgame), the more I thought about this statement: The blacks in America were under siege for many decades. Their culture and community destroyed by the whites’ racist oppresion. the more I begin to disagree with my previous post (it happens when you get old and gray).
In fact, before the Civil Rights Act was established, the black community, in this case the black family, was far more intact. Since the early 70s, I think I could make a pretty good case the community has declined, from married family units, to crime, poverty rates, and possibly even outlook.
When our government decides the best way to fight poverty is to simply give money away without expectation, look at what happened – and that is not limited, of course, to just black America. Can’t blame 70% black illegitimacy rates on past white oppression.
“To anyone less than 50 and white, that statement is meaningless.”
I’m sure its meaningless to whites. But I don’t think blacks feel that way. They feel the need to strengthen their own community because their set of circumstances is substantially different from any other group in the country. What happened many decades ago created the massive black underclass that exists today. Just like what happened centuries ago with the rape of Africa had a direct impact in creating Africa’s current situation. Whites don’t understand it, and they don’t accept it, which is why unity isn’t an option, and blacks feel like they need to come up with their own solutions. Again, if there’s nothing hostile or malicious in the mission statements of these black churches, I see little reason for complaint.
“And I challenge someone to show me one place in modern history where some race, in this case white, have done more, spent more, and conceded more in their apology”
You can’t be serious. You’re not actually expecting a pat on the back are you?
“You know King (while I am watching the ballgame), the more I thought about this statement: The blacks in America were under siege for many decades. Their culture and community destroyed by the whites’ racist oppresion. the more I begin to disagree with my previous post (it happens when you get old and gray).
In fact, before the Civil Rights Act was established, the black community, in this case the black family, was far more intact. Since the early 70s, I think I could make a pretty good case the community has declined, from married family units, to crime, poverty rates, and possibly even outlook.”
Evidence for this?
Tex-
From what I can tell, the poverty rates have gone the other way.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html
black homicide rates have trended downwards as well:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/oracetab.htm
“And I challenge someone to show me one place in modern history where some race, in this case white, have done more, spent more, and conceded more in their apology”
You can’t be serious. You’re not actually expecting a pat on the back are you?
Yeah, not only do I think we deserve a pat on the back, I actually think we’ve done it better than anybody for past transgressions the past 50 years. We are a melting pot, are we not? Did you provide your example or did I miss that? Just one will do. Does a large portion of $5 trillion dollars count for anything? Give me one example before I start laughing at you like I asked to begin with.
Why don’t you give up your job if you feel you’re responsible? Another lib statement blaming America which I find pathetic…and unashamedly phony.
I disdain liberals anymore.
There’s no example, because no other race has committed the systematic racist transgressions over history that whites have…. I’m sure you can understand why minorities don’t feel like they need to say thank you. Or maybe you can’t, which is again why blacks feel like they need to develop their own separate set of values and community structure to address circumstances that other groups don’t identify with.
Chen,
All homicide rates have trended down as have folks on welfare (as in welfare reform – one of the few things Clinton actually got right), but that is only a recent occurrence. I’ll retract the poverty rate since I believe you’re right but only since the late 90s due to a congressional act.
Have you checked out black incarceration rates? It’s not pretty. Granted, I have a problem with crack being anymore of an offense than cocaine distribution and it’s an issue that needs to be addressed but still black on black crime is epidemic. Don’t believe me, ask Bill Cosby.
Want an example? In my city of approximately 500K, we had 66 murders last year. 56 of them were black on black, though they represent only 12% of the population. Can’t blame that on white America.
King,
There’s no example, because no other race has committed the systematic racist transgressions over history that whites have…. I’m sure you can understand why minorities don’t feel like they need to say thank you. Or maybe you can’t, which is again why blacks feel like they need to develop their own separate set of values and community structure to address circumstances that other groups don’t identify with.
Are you kidding me? Systematic trangressions? Taken a look at Africa as we speak? Ever heard of The Sudan or Rwanda? Personally, I don’t give a crap if they say thank you or not. I feel absolutely no guilt.
And show me where blacks live better than they do in America. Again, just one will do.
I really am convinced people like King and Sliquid hate America. I can’t say it any better than this guy does…he nails it!
Evan Sayat
http://caosblog.com/4854
[Are you really pulling out the “you hate America” card (and that video again)? Straw Man emblem awarded…congrats. -CZ]
Tex-
So, back to King’s point. If there are still disproportionate problems in the black community with regards to crime, would an all-black church be a positive or negative force in combating that?
I’m not convinced there is really anything to be “concerned” about.
“All homicide rates have trended down as have folks on welfare (as in welfare reform – one of the few things Clinton actually got right), but that is only a recent occurrence. I’ll retract the poverty rate since I believe you’re right but only since the late 90s due to a congressional act.”
Actually the poverty rate has been trending downwards since the 60’s just not as sharply as it did prior to the Civil Rights Act. The cause of this downward trend may be debated, but you claimed that poverty has been getting worse, which isn’t true.
“Are you kidding me? Systematic trangressions? Taken a look at Africa as we speak? Ever heard of The Sudan or Rwanda? Personally, I don’t give a crap if they say thank you or not. I feel absolutely no guilt.”
I didn’t say you have to feel guilty. I don’t know why you’re on the defensive, since you are the one who was attacking Obama’s church for being too separatist. You still haven’t shown me any hostile intentions on the part of that church. If you know the history of what the Europeans did in Africa – including the Belgians in Rwanda – then you’d understand why again, blacks feel they need to run their own show.
“And show me where blacks live better than they do in America. Again, just one will do.”
I don’t see the point of this….
Ya know, I was kind of hoping that someone would come in with the Obama the “Muslim Manchurian candidate” bit. I suppose as long as it’s just good ol fashioned race and sectarian quibbles then we’re probably safe from the apocalypse.
Chen,
You’re straw man argument is so bias, it’s laughable and meaningless. I dare you to program in any post I leave with a straw man. You ought to change your definition of strawman symbol you’re so proud of to a big frickin’ question mark when you find one you guys can’t even give an answer to.
I could have almost included you in that group. Like I said, Evan Sayat nails you guys to a ‘T’ and left to your own regard, you invariably make things worse like your Great Society ideals. And like him, I am convinced you guys hate America, even if you don’t realize it.
P.S. – you ought to find a symbol that symbolizes 9/10, the world you guys are still living in; or better yet, 1963.
King,
I can show you transgressions throughout history for every race. Let’s talk about the present. Everytime I make a point, you obfuscate, evade, or refuse to answer. Your usual retort: I don’t understand the point of this. Whether it makes since or not, why can’t you simply answer the question? I already know the answer.
You quote: If you know the history of what the Europeans did in Africa – including the Belgians in Rwanda – then you’d understand why again, blacks feel they need to run their own show. I’ll try this a different way since I obviously am not getting thru to you. If blacks are going to be allowed to run their own show, then why can’t whites? Otherwise, your setting a double standard.
My point is still from my original post. Let’s for once see if you can honestly answer this question. If George Bush’s church had a mission statement that said:
“A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO EUROPE and Israel and we are a congregation which is Unashamedly White”, you can honestly tell me you libs wouldn’t be apoplectic?
Hell, I know for a fact after Chen soiled his britches, he’d design an entire blog around FearFearRacistBush.
That’s how blind I actually think you guys are.
Chen,
I’m not convinced there is really anything to be “concerned” about.
If Obama came out and said, “I hate whitey,” I’m completely sure you could find some justification to excuse him.
Cast your vote and I’ll cast mine. If Barack wins, you guys can do as you wish. I kind of hope that he does win and so screws things up, that it finally becomes obvious libs can’t run things. It happened once in ’92 but American people unfortunately have very short memories. It generally lasts for about 10 years before the American disconnect “demands change.”
And if Obama is successful as you suggest, I’ll cast my vote for him in 2012. That’s a promise.
I can hardly wait for him to bomb Pakistan. That ought to go over big.
Tex-
I’m not sure whether to give you another straw man or the magic uprights with that one. What the heck does 9/10 or Great Society have to do with this thread anyway?
Of course it would be a problem (the unashamedly white part), but King addressed the difference, so it’s asked and answered. We then debated if the difference is valid, so we’ve kinda moved past that part.
/And speaking of 1963, that’s probably the last time anyone used the phrase “soiled his britches”.
I believe I already answered the question. Yes I would be concerned, and that’s not a double standard because it’s apples and oranges. You’re ignoring the context. Read the rest of that mission statement, for example:
Blacks have gone through a long hard road, and this church is one way for them to pick up the pieces and address the needs of their community. In other words, there’s the history which justifies the need for black institutions like this one. The statement says “Unashamedly Black”, because for a long time while under the slavemaster’s and the racists’ boot, blacks were taught they were inferior. That they should be ashamed to be dark-skinned. When did this ever happen with whites?
What’s the history with whites, particularly whites who say they are proud to be white? It reeks of the white supremacist ideology which has permeated world history for so long.
Look at history, and you’ll understand the difference.
King,
Look at history, and you’ll understand the difference. I look at history and see far and away the most persecuted group of folks in history: they’re called Jews. And they seemed to have done quite well in “racist” America. I look at Japanese, Vietnamese and Chinese who have been persecuted throughout history, including while residing in America (interment camps, WWII ring any bells?). I don’t see their emphasis on separation and they have actually blended quite nicely. They also seemed to be doing just fine, academically and socially. You want me to go on with immigrants who seem to be doing just fine in racist, white America?
Let me guess your answer…something about the uniqueness and scope of the white racism against blacks. Racism is racism King. There isn’t a race, creed or color that hasn’t experienced it in America in one form or fashion, including Irish and Italians. At some time, the excuse for failure due to someone else has to run its course and the blame directed back at the real perpetrator.
I’ll try this again because it goes directly to the heart of your argument about something owed: if whites are responsible for the ills of our society, if we are still a bigoted nation, please do tell me where blacks live any better on average than they do in America, warts and all? That’s a very simple question that should have a very easy answer if you’re right about the ongoing persecution and the continuing evils of our society.
As far as I’m concerned, until you can show me your own personal sacrifice and works, something besides a sound bite, your message rings hollow and actually enables racism by excusing it with more tacit racism. You excuse bad behavior and bad choices under the pretense of past sins. It’s like excusing a murderer because of his upbringing. Besides, if we are going to talk about following Christ’s message, an eye for an eye doesn’t jive. If I am missing the real message of Christ which is forgiveness from the mission statement, please direct me because I am not seeing it. And yes, I believe it’s a flagrant double standard which only enflames more raw emotion.
Ironically, you quoted above from Obama’s Church if somehow that would note its intent. Well, here’s one used as an example of just how cheap a message of love can be. I don’t use it as a direct analogy because it is obviously is not but to show just how misleading a message can be without reading the underlying meaning.
Our ministry is non-dogmatic, which means a Christian from any denomination is welcome. We will not and do not subscribe to any particular dogmas who is already a Christian. We learn from Christ that anyone who truly loves Him and serves Him is guaranteed eternal life no matter what doctrine he prescibes to. We love all our Christian brethren. God Bless you and yours! Your brothers in Christ
Imperial Wizard J. Parker
Brotherhood of Klans KKK & Imperial Chaplain
Church of the Fiery Cross
———
And Chen, as far as I’m concerned, King hasn’t addressed one specific question I’ve asked him. Its answer, if it even bothers, is asking another question or parroting some boilerplated meme from the house of reparation.
I know it is asking too much for you one time to moderate in a fair manner because of your personal bias, but I’ll give you a heads up. Your emblems represent the absolute worst a board has to offer if your intent was to build a diverse membership. Do you have an emblem to signify meaningless answers, unrelated or irrelevant to the questions at hand. Or would that only apply to the right as well?
One last thing Chen before I go. If you weren’t for Obama I would be shocked. If you’re anything, you’re predictable. I meet your type, King’s type, Sliquid’s type everyday. You guys could be cut from a cookie cutter. I can generally find out all I need to know when asking what you do for a living and a couple of other simple questions about perspective – and tell you where you stand on issues before you ever state them. It’s called class envy.
Like I said before, Evan Sayat used to be one of you. And he would be the first to call you guys on your American loathing. Sorry if that offends, but it is the gospel truth. The only facts your interested in are those that jive with your preconceived notions. You learned everything you need to know in kindergarten just as Evan said.
In an attempt to stay within the thread and the post here I go. The Black Value System is objectively divisive but is not the only guidance TUCC and other predominantly black congregations adhere to.Obama’s attendence in that congregation is no different than JFK’s Catholic Church/Papal controversy in 1960. I would also point out that Romney should be afforded that same logic.There is a number of things you can freak out on re: The LDS but is that Romney ?
Do whites primarily identify themselves as white or under their ethnic background ? I would say the latter and I’d further stipulate that the blacks have a different situation.Ergo Unashamedly White” isn’t as likely as the thinking “Proud to be _________”
As for where are blacks treated better ? The truer qualifier here is:Where else are blacks treated in any manner solely based on their color ?
As for anyone running their own show. Get a bus load of whites and go to TUCC. You know kind of in the spirit of the single digit blacks running the gauntlet in Little Rock back in the day.
As for support of Israel there’s a number of synagogues with exactly that message and many “Christian” churches that buy into Zionism as Biblically required to bring forth the 2nd coming.
Bias? Tell you what Tex, if I go over to some righty blog to engage in a discussion and -in an attempt to gain the upper hand in the debate- desperately resort to a charge of “conservatives hate America”, attributing my opponent(s) to that position, and post as “evidence” a video of some evangelical-turned-hippie ranting about it, I’ll gladly take a straw man emblem.
Bias? Tex, why do you even bother with the debate? I mean, if you already live within this paradigm that “liberals hate America”, you’re obviously going to view whatever we say through that tainted glass. It would seem that it is you who is holding the bias. Look at it this way, I gave you the emblem for not checking that baggage at the door.
This whole Trinity Church slamming is just funny.
He is a follower of Christ, but that’s not good enough for the religious right wingers…nope, because his church is a black church that celebrates their heritage, they all must be evil Afrocentrists. What a load of crap. As long as he isn’t a scientologist, then who cares?
“One last thing Chen before I go. If you weren’t for Obama I would be shocked. If you’re anything, you’re predictable. I meet your type, King’s type, Sliquid’s type everyday. You guys could be cut from a cookie cutter. I can generally find out all I need to know when asking what you do for a living and a couple of other simple questions about perspective – and tell you where you stand on issues before you ever state them. It’s called class envy.”
I guess if someone is as far right as you are, then we all look like “crazy” leftists. This little quote from you shows us nothing more than what kind of person you are. You can tell who we are just by “looking at us”, or by judging two or three posts by us, but you can’t seem to actually listen when we tell you who we really are. We are all just mindless leftish robots to you with no shades of gray in between. It’s sad really, and just drives home the fact that you are a wacko fundamentalist.
But just to prove how incredibly wrong you are about us…I will leave you a little tid-bit about myself.
I work at an architecture firm designing and building WAL*MARTS and Lowes! Tell me what that makes me…
And I am not voting for Obama. How do you like them apples? I am actually probably voting for an *eeeep* Repugnant…I’m pro gun rights, and I believe in smaller government and less taxes…and I don’t believe in a socialist nanny state.
So now, tell me who I am, since you are the master of stereotyping.
“Bias? Tell you what Tex, if I go over to some righty blog to engage in a discussion and -in an attempt to gain the upper hand in the debate- desperately resort to a charge of “conservatives hate America”, attributing my opponent(s) to that position, and post as “evidence” a video of some evangelical-turned-hippie ranting about it, I’ll gladly take a straw man emblem.”
That’s the best part. You must be biased against him, even though you let him speak his mind with out censoring him…but you go to one of their close minded bigot fests, and you get banned for speaking your truth.
“Bias? Tex, why do you even bother with the debate? I mean, if you already live within this paradigm that “liberals hate America”, you’re obviously going to view whatever we say through that tainted glass. It would seem that it is you who is holding the bias. Look at it this way, I gave you the emblem for not checking that baggage at the door.”
What did you really expect? A fundamentalist nutter isn’t going to drop his personality at the door.
Chen,
I just saw a bumper sticker on a car when I went to the voting booth that I believe might best typify my feelings about your party:
Republican – because not everybody can be on welfare.
LOL!
Sliquid,
I work at an architecture firm designing and building WAL*MARTS and Lowes
What are you doing sacking groceries at a architectural firm? I didn’t know Wallie World catered.
Do they pay you enough to buy a PC at home or can you only do it on the corporate dole?
Alright, I really need to help you guys with formatting comments, so tonight’s project will be a page dedicated to that. In the meantime, check out the B4B comment page.
Chen,
Bias? Tex, why do you even bother with the debate? I mean, if you already live within this paradigm that “liberals hate America”, you’re obviously going to view whatever we say through that tainted glass.
Assuming that is true, how would that differ from your pre-conceived bias that is diametrically opposed to mine? I would hardly call you untainted. In fairness, you’re no different than most liberals I meet. It takes something on the order of magnitude of a 9/11 to change a leftist’s opinion. And even then, most of you forget six weeks after the fact because your busy trying to find fault with your own country.
Did you watch Evan Sayat? If you haven’t, you really should. I don’t expect it to be life changing for you but it would offer you a great deal of insight to why I think the way I do. Sayat explains at great length far more eloquently than I could how we, that would be conservatives, believe liberals hate America.
Here’s the bottom line Chenzhen. The debate is simply a point of interest. Elect who you wish – I think your man might even make it. But at the end of the day, say January 20ish 2013, we will be even more polarized as a country. I guarantee it. The last seven years have changed everything and the only thing that might bring it back together is…
Well, you like movies – so do I. Like Clemenza said, “it’s been ten years since the last blood-war, but they often have healing consequences: “Helps to get rid of the bad blood…”
Oh, and Chen you’re mistaken,
and post as “evidence” a video of some evangelical-turned-hippie ranting about it, I’ll gladly take a straw man emblem.”
Evan Sayat was a liberal Jew. He’s still a Jew. He calls himself a 9/13 Republican. And he never rants; not once. I know. I watched it twice it was so good.
Gad your/you’re. Chen, I need that preview! I am forever making the same mistake. Something there about stupidity…
I do want to ask one thing. I may have been mistaken. Out of respect, if you wish this to be a one-sided blog, I’ll abide. You had led me to believe you like to be challenged. I would abide, of course.
Sliquid,
I work at an architecture firm designing and building WAL*MARTS and Lowes
What are you doing sacking groceries at a architectural firm? I didn’t know Wallie World catered.
Do they pay you enough to buy a PC at home or can you only do it on the corporate dole?
Wow, that’s rich coming from someone who brags about how much of their life they waste on countless numbers of blogs. Am I to assume you have no job?
Nice bait and switch b.t.w. That was precious.
An Wal Mart is OUR customer and they pay very well. Don’t be jealous because I have a nice secure job that allows me to live very nicely.
“I do want to ask one thing. I may have been mistaken. Out of respect, if you wish this to be a one-sided blog, I’ll abide. You had led me to believe you like to be challenged. I would abide, of course”
You know, there is a difference between “challenging” and acting like an asshat. If your idea of challenging is calling everyone left of right gullible and loony, then you aren’t so much making a challenge, as you are looking for a fight.
The Jews, for example, have their own groups; AIPAC, ADL, that look out exclusively for Jewish interests and the interests of Israel. I see nothing wrong with that and don’t consider them separatist groups. Just institutions set up to address the specific needs of the Jewish community.
No other race in America was enslaved, and even forty years ago blacks were still getting lynched. Racism is racism, and even whites experience it. But what really matters is who has the power to carry out their racist ideology, and its always been the whites who have been in that position of power.
The answer is nowhere. They might live better in Britain or other European countries, but that’s a guess, because no other Western country has a black population as large as yours. The only countries with big black populations are African ones. And the African countries are still devastated by the effects of imperialism. If the whites hadn’t raped Africa then you wouldn’t have to worry about their welfare, would you?
The real question that’s relevant is whether blacks are still far behind other groups in the US. I think the answer is obvious, and you’ve conceded to it. Maybe they are responsible for their own position. Even more the reason to develop their own grassroots organisations to address their problems.
I agree, look at the underlying meaning. We know what the underlying meaning and the context of the KKK is…. what’s the context of the Trinity Church? Have they ever professed hatred of whites or hostility to America?
I think it says a lot about you that you are so worked up over the Church and its mission statement.
An Wal Mart is OUR customer and they pay very well. Don’t be jealous because I have a nice secure job that allows me to live very nicely.
Yeah, I’ll bet you live large. Your reference to “bait and switch” was as usual irrelevant to the subject at hand.
Architect’s toady, huh? Well, do me a then? As a shareholder of Wallie Mart, a perfectly miserable stock, tell the designers that the layout sucks; I’m sure designed to WalMart’s specs. A gigantic rectangular building with parallel aisles can’t be terribly hard to plan; we’re not talking the Freedom Tower here. Ask them to convince WalMart to make a little larger aisle. It looks trashy as I was just there. As a shareholder in Lowe’s, they’re fine. Nice, in fact. Nice layout, woeful stock.
Do I have a job? Ironic you would ask. Believe it or not Sliquid and putting aside our differences for only a part of a post, after 20 years of a good paying but unfulfilling work in the corporate world, I am in the process of making a radical career change from old corporate America; long overdue, in fact. A path I had always regretted not pursuing since I graduated from college. I guarantee you it would blow you’re mind to know what I am getting ready to enter at my grand, old age.
You don’t think I have this much time to waste all the time, do you? That’s why my timing couldn’t be better to harass a trained monkey like you. I’ve got another complete spring to throw punches with you before I have to get serious about life again. This short period has been one of the best of my life and I wish it could go on – and it will for a time as long as the stock market doesn’t continue to tank.
Understand one thing about my debate with Chenzhen. Unlike you, I don’t think Chen a punk. He’s confused but obviously bright. Being that, I offer him respect I don’t believe you deserve.
If the whites hadn’t raped Africa then you wouldn’t have to worry about their welfare, would you?
I hate to be the bearer of some bad news King, but it was blacks who were assisting the whites capturing and boarding the slaves. That’s a matter of historical record.
We know what the underlying meaning and the context of the KKK is…. what’s the context of the Trinity Church? Have they ever professed hatred of whites or hostility to America?
Its minister, and Obama’s spiritual adviser, is the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. In 1982, the church launched Trumpet Newsmagazine; Wright’s daughters serve as publisher and executive editor. Every year, the magazine makes awards in various categories. Last year, it gave the Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter Award to a man it said “truly epitomized greatness.” That man is Louis Farrakhan. Here’s your link to that great bastion of conservatism, the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/14/AR2008011402083.html
You tell me, sound like a church with a loving mission? And your man has been a member for 20 years.
Well there’s a legitimate issue that they’ve been talking about in the news. That story’s actually been out on the net for awhile.
Your contention is that Obama is a part of a Church which has a pastor who has a magazine which said good things about Louis Farrakhan, so this reflects on Obama.
Please, let’s be serious. Look up the names Billy Graham, John Hagee, and Jerry Falwell. These are politicians that are directly associated with (and praised by) Republican candidates, and some Democratic ones. Unlike Obama. Please show me evidence that the Church itself has hostile intentions towards other groups. The pastor having a magazine isn’t evidence. If you’ve ever been to church you know that your pastor does a lot of off the wall shit that you don’t always agree with.
“Yeah, I’ll bet you live large. Your reference to “bait and switch” was as usual irrelevant to the subject at hand.”
As was your entire post about me “working at wal* mart” or being able to tell who we are by where we work.
As is most of the drivel you pass off of debate…but I digress…
“Architect’s toady, huh? Well, do me a then?”
Uhhh, what? English, do you speak it?
“As a shareholder of Wallie Mart, a perfectly miserable stock, tell the designers that the layout sucks; I’m sure designed to WalMart’s specs. A gigantic rectangular building with parallel aisles can’t be terribly hard to plan; we’re not talking the Freedom Tower here. Ask them to convince WalMart to make a little larger aisle. It looks trashy as I was just there. As a shareholder in Lowe’s, they’re fine. Nice, in fact. Nice layout, woeful stock.”
Ahhh, showing your ignorance again. I challenge you to look around at many of the NEW Wal Marts going up today. Not trashy at all. Isles are spacious. Wal Mart does dictate most of the specs, but we have some design input ourselves. But yeah, look into the ones in Florida or the new ones in New York. and yes, big box stores aren’t the Freedom tower, but I think you would be pleasantly surprised to see what we have been creating as of the last two years. It’s a complete change from the typical gray/red/blue color scheme. Basically, the jurisdictions of the town has more say in how they look than we do. Most want good looking stores now, so we abide.
“Do I have a job? Ironic you would ask. Believe it or not Sliquid and putting aside our differences for only a part of a post, after 20 years of a good paying but unfulfilling work in the corporate world, I am in the process of making a radical career change from old corporate America; long overdue, in fact. A path I had always regretted not pursuing since I graduated from college. I guarantee you it would blow you’re mind to know what I am getting ready to enter at my grand, old age.”
So, no. You have no job. And you sit here and chastise me for using my lunch break to post here. Typical MOOCH.
“You don’t think I have this much time to waste all the time, do you? That’s why my timing couldn’t be better to harass a trained monkey like you. I’ve got another complete spring to throw punches with you before I have to get serious about life again. This short period has been one of the best of my life and I wish it could go on – and it will for a time as long as the stock market doesn’t continue to tank.”
So what you are saying is that you will be sitting on your ass for the next quarter year “debating”/yelling at people online. What a fulfilling life. I am truly envious. heh
“Understand one thing about my debate with Chenzhen. Unlike you, I don’t think Chen a punk. He’s confused but obviously bright. Being that, I offer him respect I don’t believe you deserve.”
You only show him respect so that he doesn’t boot you off his site. And I would hardly call calling him an ignorant misguided liberal a sign of respect.
But that’s just me. I could care less if you respect me. Respect from a keyboard cowboy means nothing to me. I just love watching you squirm as all the “libs” a.k.a anyone left of you, put you in your place.
“You tell me, sound like a church with a loving mission? And your man has been a member for 20 years.”
Sounds like you missed something…
“It’s important to state right off that nothing in Obama’s record suggests he harbors anti-Semitic views or agrees with Wright when it comes to Farrakhan. Instead, as Obama’s top campaign aide, David Axelrod, points out, Obama often has said that he and his minister sometimes disagree. Farrakhan, Axelrod told me, is one of those instances.”
Squalor,
Ahhh, showing your ignorance again. I challenge you to look around at many of the NEW Wal Marts going up today. Not trashy at all. Isles are spacious.
The one I went to last night (a supercenter) is less than two years old. A piece of crap. A gigantic rectangular aluminum box with some hanging lights – aisles parallel thru half the store; perpendicular, thru the other for no apparent reason. Probably didn’t make it long enough according to your specs and had to make do. Looked like something you’d hold a cattle auction in. You could barely squeeze by with your cart. I kept waiting for the floor to become dirt. And the stock may be the poorest performer I own.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=WMT&t=5y
Guess your new and improved design hasn’t paid off for the stockholders yet?
So, no. You have no job. And you sit here and chastise me for using my lunch break to post here. Typical MOOCH.
That’s right. Consider me Mr. Mom and Mr. Mooch while I returned to school as an old fart. At least I’m mooching off my wife. Most fun I’ve had in 20 years, though I am beginning to feel the professional student. Got to love my wife. You, being the lying thief do it from work. And the home? I own one too. Own is the key word. Not some ARM, mortgaged to the hilt you “own”. I’m confident you’ll soon join the ranks of the statistics in mortgage bankruptcy, especially if you’re caught dicking off on the company’s dime like you do so often. And knowing you, you’ll walk leaving the bill to someone else, still carrying student loans for law school which you’ll also default, given the opportunity. Wouldn’t get too boastful their CAD assistant to the architect. Think you would find my future career path something you could never qualify. I’ll bet you’re hell with a Xerox machine there in the office. What a job…
You only show him respect so that he doesn’t boot you off his site. And I would hardly call calling him an ignorant misguided liberal a sign of respect.
Well, make up your mind. It only took you one sentence to contradict yourself – a record. Do I respect him or not? Yes, I have a measure of respect for Chen, basically because he’s got a nice site here and unlike you, generally posts something thought provoking. It has little to do with the fear of being booted, but I do find that funny. You think I would disrupt a thread arguing with a loser like you if I was worried about the boot?
“It’s important to state right off that nothing in Obama’s record suggests he harbors anti-Semitic views or agrees with Wright when it comes to Farrakhan. Instead, as Obama’s top campaign aide, David Axelrod, points out, Obama often has said that he and his minister sometimes disagree. Farrakhan, Axelrod told me, is one of those instances.”
I didn’t expect you to be smart enough to connect the dots; never a lib strong suit. And you’ll note CAD assistant, that was from one of the two or three most liberal papers in the country, and from possibly its most liberal journalist. What do you expect Cohen to state? Obama’s a disgrace and a racist like Louis? Even your ilk has concerns. Like I said, you’d excuse anything if it met your atheistic warped views.
You let me know assistant Squalor when you’re done with your sophomoric rants and we can get back to the issue at hand. I am sure everyone else, owner included, is getting tired of this.
The only thing more stale is this entire election process. What a snoozer…
I feel so un unloved
in2thefray,
Here:
As for support of Israel there’s a number of synagogues with exactly that message and many “Christian” churches that buy into Zionism as Biblically required to bring forth the 2nd coming.
That’s actually a myth perpetuated by the MSM and the dumb secular types because their theology is so lame, they make something up because someone said so – somewhere, it became the common mantra in the secular world. It’s kind of along the same lines as Pat Robertson is the spiritual leader of the Christian church – laughable, if you’re in the Church.
If you want to know the real support from “Evangelical Christian” churches supporting Israel, it’s basically based on scripture such as this verse:
Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.
I could provide a hundred more verses of scripture, if interested, from both Old and New Testaments.
Any Christian worth his salt knows it is theological incorrect that Zionism is any requirement for the rapture, if you believe in such a thing. In fact, we laugh at people that parrot this meme as another indicator of their ignorance of our faith. And I personally believe it is heresy to think we somehow (Christians) are in control of carrying out God’s will. If you meet any Christians telling you this, they are sadly mistaken. God is plenty capable all by His lonesome and may or may not choose to use us considering this measure.
But you are correct in your assessment that we are Zionists; and for good reason.
in2thefray
Well, I think we’ve hit rock bottom anyway. I come back after a few hours to discover that the discussion has turned to jabs at Wal-Mart’s store layout. Maybe it’s finally time for a new thread.
/don’t worry, you made excellent points
Yeah Chen, where’s the next installment?
King- I’ve been stuck at work quite a bit over the last few days, so I haven’t had a lot of time to put something new up. Well, that, and I’ve been engaged in this thread and elsewhere.
Any suggestions?
King (I assume male) – let me fill you in on a very honest observation having little to do with you and everything with this website. The moderator is a carbon copy of you.
If you meet Chen’s preconceived notions and ideals, you get a gold star, it doesn’t matter how empty your rhetoric. It explains why there are no conservatives here but me, other than the occasional blurb from LGF about the General (his nickname at LGF) poking fun. To explain or debate is truly futile because you have no intention of changing your mind.
You guys can pat yourself on the back for ingenuity, but in my circle we are still shaking our heads in disbelief at the rational posted in places. I’m currently showing my friends some of the “stuff”. We conveniently ignored Sliquid because he isn’t worth reading unless you’re looking for a laugh. In fact, a few of ‘us’ perusing the site are still wondering how you could define the U.S. as imperialistic from a previous thread. I didn’t call you on that one.
My buddy (Stephen) says that is possibly the most asinine statement he has read since someone called Hillary Rodham the smartest woman on earth – never mind, she couldn’t pass the bar. They thought it parody until I explained it wasn’t.
You asked me to please show you evidence that Obama’s church has hostile intentions towards other groups. Have they ever professed hatred of whites or hostility to America? I believe you would find Louis F. has done exactly that on numerous occasions. A mission statement represents the ideals of a church and gives a picture of their stance on issues, both political and spiritual. I’m completely convinced if Obama told you himself of the church’s disdain of anything or anyone not black, you wouldn’t believe him.
You also stated that you think it says a lot about me that I would be so worked up over the Church and its mission statement. That road runs both ways. I find it amazing you have no problem rewarding a racist with an award from Obama’s own spiritual leader (whatever that is) that said Louie “truly epitomized greatness”, nor that you don’t have a problem with a church who doesn’t even mention America. Yet you find its most famous member more than qualified to manage the unmentioned country.
I find the majority of the Chamber a newer version of Lenin’s useful idiots, amoral at best. I can well imagine what you must think of me.
“I’ll try this again because it goes directly to the heart of your argument about something owed: if whites are responsible for the ills of our society, if we are still a bigoted nation, please do tell me where blacks live any better on average than they do in America, warts and all? That’s a very simple question that should have a very easy answer if you’re right about the ongoing persecution and the continuing evils of our society.”
Arguably England, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland…
I have a question and I am sure you have a mind blowing answer for it, but out of all the “oppressed” groups you mention, which ones have actually had federal laws made against them in the last 60 years (roughly 4 generations)? Which ones have actually had to fight the government to simply be considered 5/5ths human?
As far as you diatribe, BRAVO! You “nailed” it! I just couldn’t believe how well you know me. I mean, Jesus himself must have told you all about me, because there is just NO WAY you could “know” me that well. You know, you are absolutely right about not being qualified for you next job. Apparently speaking directly with God himself is going to be a very lucrative position for you. Congrats! honestly.
“I didn’t expect you to be smart enough to connect the dots; never a lib strong suit. And you’ll note CAD assistant, that was from one of the two or three most liberal papers in the country, and from possibly its most liberal journalist. What do you expect Cohen to state? Obama’s a disgrace and a racist like Louis? Even your ilk has concerns. Like I said, you’d excuse anything if it met your atheistic warped views.”
My warped views? Obama is a “man of Christ”, much as you claim to be. Why would I excuse his “behavior” if it was against my “warped atheistic views”? That seems a bit contradictory don’t you think?
Like I said before, I didn’t vote for Obama today. It has nothing to do with his religion or his church. I don’t think it’s as big a deal as you do. Your church does not necessarily define you as a person, I personally like to see what kind of man he is before I get my magical panties in a bunch over his church’s mission statement… I would however be more concerned, if he was a fundamentalist pseudo-Christian who was simply pandering to the extremists…=)
“Any suggestions?”
Chen, how about his past voting record? His views on the war in Iraq, as opposed to Afghanistan. Things that could possibly be a road block for him in winning over the undecided voters…ect.
you could also do domestic/social policies
Tex-
Did you miss the immigration thread, Tex? King and I were definitely not on the same page on that one. You make it sound like everyone who disagrees with you on one issue would disagree with you on all issues and agree with each other on all issues. That’s just silly.
For the record, King and Sliquid and I have debated various topics well before the Chamber was ever created. And if I recall correctly, there have been quite a few occasions where we didn’t agree. In fact, I think King is more often in disagreement, frankly. I think you need to wipe the lens on whatever peephole you’re using to make these “honest observations”.
Louis Farrakhan isn’t a member of the Trinity Church. Obama himself is clearly not an anti-Semite, as he’s been very pro-Israel so far in his campaign. Maybe this whole ordeal reflects poorly on the pastor, but it doesn’t necessarily reflect on Obama. The guilt by association chain your trying to attach to Obama’s ankle isn’t very strong. And as a Christian, I don’t consider it a prerequisite that a church has to mention America in its mission statement.
Tex- One more thing, since you were (in the same thread) complimenting me on the site and are contending that conservatives don’t visit here, you might find this a bit ironic (’cause I do)…
Do you see that little thing that says “Founder of the WordPress.com Political Blogger Alliance” in my sidebar? The WPPBA is a group of bloggers representing liberals, conservatives, moderates…Americans, Europeans… Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc. So please, spare me the “preconceived notions” and “occasional blurb from LGF” lines, OK?
Do you see that little thing that says “Founder of the WordPress.com Political Blogger Alliance” in my sidebar? The WPPBA is a group of bloggers representing liberals, conservatives, moderates…Americans, Europeans… Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc. So please, spare me the “preconceived notions” and “occasional blurb from LGF” lines, OK?
Is the irony that I would compliment the design of your site on the same thread I would call you on your liberal, Bush hating bias? If that is the case, I certainly would believe you wise enough to understand how I can both compliment the site’s operations, yet still diss your personal motives. Maybe I have misunderstood the irony. Maybe you think that disrespectful?
Okay, WordPress is an alliance represented by various groups. Does the WordPress alliance make your site fair with respect to its moderator’s judgment? The site is definitely thought provoking; better than most. But your personal judgment fair? Do I have to state what I believe to be the obvious? I thought you already knew that.
See, I find this site is so slanted, the page attempts to slide left off my screen. IMHO, what the site needs is balance in its comments to be better. It’s difficult to debate (what I thought the purpose) when it’s an echo chamber with different flavors. Just a suggestion, of course. But that’s what makes it fun too because it is still small enough in debating not only with those holding opposing views but also doing it with multiple personalities. Take this post: King and yourself gentleman (I guess King’s male), in2thefray a worthy opponent with some good points, and Sliquid, the nasty demeanor. You got one side covered.
Chen, you know that I think your own personal biases, especially those pertaining to Bush, blind you to even the simplest of opposing viewpoints. Understand that I don’t think you necessarily bad. I think your conclusions inevitably lead to bad results. That was my purpose of providing the Evan Sayat link that apparently made you angry. He explains that in great detail. I was disappointed you didn’t listen to him because I always thought you of the open mind seeking knowledge. That’s what you have told me.
However, your website, your prerogative to manage as you please. I stick by my previous compliments as they were sincere and you have done a nice job. Not nice enough that all of the sudden I throw up my hands and say, “Oh, you are completely correct! Where did I go wrong!”
Thanks for letting me post here to liven things up a bit.
King,
The guilt by association chain your trying to attach to Obama’s ankle isn’t very strong. And as a Christian, I don’t consider it a prerequisite that a church has to mention America in its mission statement.
I am not sure what else I could say. But speaking of “not very strong”, I don’t know what church you attend, but if your pastor’s message isn’t reflecting of the most basic of its membership’s tenets, I question the validity for the purpose of its existence, at least anything edifying.
Certainly for me, I would be troubled if my pastor decided to elect a raging anti-Semite as a “model citizen” and hand him an award. Most people would have tendencies to assume that reflected the majority of opinion.
Obama himself is clearly not an anti-Semite, as he’s been very pro-Israel so far in his campaign. Talk is cheap and pandering politicians say much to get elected they don’t necessarily believe. Obama is smart enough to recognize the Jewish vote and its respect power is a must to be elected if you’re a Dim. Only time will tell Obama’s true convictions.
If I am wrong about this association, I will personally come back and admit my error at a later date. You can hold me to that. Give it about 2-3 years because it would take that long to determine accurately how the man really believes.
Tex-
No you claimed that conservatives don’t visit my site because of my supposed bias, and I’m pointing out that I formed a group of bloggers representing the entire political spectrum to share posts and discussion, many of whom are conservative and visit my site all the time (in2thefray being one of them). It’s particularly ironic because you might have noticed the Alliance while examining the site layout. And one would think that the fact that I’m one of the few bloggers out there who has made a (successful) attempt to reach across the political, religious, and international divides to form something like the Alliance means that I might rank fairly low on the inherent bias-o-meter.
I’m pointing out that I formed a group of bloggers representing the entire political spectrum to share posts and discussion, many of whom are conservative and visit my site all the time (in2thefray being one of them)
I’m a little confused here. What is your personal affiliation with this diverse “group of bloggers.” Are these your friends, WordPress, what? People you have met across the net and you formed a group to represent different viewpoints and different sites? I’m not being smart aleck. I honestly am not following and need more detail. Otherwise, a FEARBUSH.com and the visceral hatred tells me what I need to know about the “inherent-bias-o-meter.”
Speaking of that and how I know you like philosophy, let me make an example of inherent bias at this website (from the academic vantage point) which concerns your approach to the selling of Obama. You, being the philosopher, should recognize that all of these posts would be defined in the academic sense as “begging the question.”
The statements are assumed to be true. In doing so, they mask the need for reason or argument. You take Obama’s website, force your opponent to work backward to disprove, when in reality the real point of debate should be for you to prove these statements to be true. That is one fatal flaw in the liberal response I am reading on this thread.
If you would have taken Bill Clinton’s talking points verbatim from 1992 as gospel fact, knowing what we know now, you would remember that Clinton stated that he would run the “most moral administration of the 20th century.” Didn’t matter that everything else about he and his wife’s background said otherwise.
I care to bet that if we had been having these very same conversations 16 years ago, you would have been the first to his defense, the first to state he the most qualified, the first to sell him as a uniter; no matter that the bad business associations, corruption of previous administrations and historical fact saying otherwise.
Obama is a completely unknown. It would be unfair of me to simply make Obama vis-a-vis Clinton but I use the Clinton example of what happens when people jump on the bandwagon and believe everything they hear because someone’s ideas sound new or fresh.
Stand for change? What change? That’s a soundbite; nothing more than pandering for votes. Things could change for the worse – a lot worse. Obama has no distinguished record or accomplishment; neither does he have glaring failures. He has little or no record period. I truly don’t know much about him. You don’t either. What makes him qualified to be President is what needs to be proven. For him to state that he could “unpolarize” the country sounds great but how is he going to attempt to do so?
Chenzhen,
Forget it. I think I may have answered my own question. I reread the post and noticed the link.
That it? If so, you’re to be commended. However, I still fail to see how this alleviates you from your own personal prejudices. I was under the impression you like debate. It’s a neat idea, though.
Whoops…I also notice the link in the origination of this thread so I missed it twice. Mea culpa…
Tex-
It’s the latter. Did you follow the link I provided?
How does the fact that I posted on an anti-Bush site make me bias against you or conservatives? I can see how it would make me bias on threads relating directly to Bush and what he’s done, but when it comes to debates on immigration or foreign policy or awarding emblems for straw man arguments or whatever, I don’t see how that translates.
Tex-
If you don’t like the format, you don’t need to post here. All I’m doing is taking Obama’s stated position on certain issues and giving a few thoughts on why I agree with it. It’s mostly opinion, which isn’t intended to be “disproven” (like a statement of fact) as much as it is to gather other’s opinions and bring forth contradictions or reasons to believe that the position isn’t sound. Most bloggers who have endorsed one candidate or another have squeezed their reasoning into a single post, so I thought I’d do something a little different and dedicate threads of specific issues that were important to my selection process and lay them out over time, giving the opportunity to discuss them piece by piece.
I am certainly aware that lip service and pandering exist, so that’s why I’m doing this. I’m giving visitors the opportunity the present evidence or arguments that may sway or reaffirm my position. Some will argue that, for example, Obama lacks experience or accomplishments. That’s certainly a valid point. I can come back and say that a job like the POTUS requires the ability to lead and inspire, in which Obama appears to be extraordinarly talented. No one candidate will be the master of all trades (so to speak), so it is important for a president to surround himself with competent people (as opposed to simply loyalists), and Obama has pledged to do just that (see Part V).
The overall idea here is to get these issues out in the open and I definately do NOT want an echo chamber (pardon the pun) here, so I thank you for what you’re doing in that regard.
Again, none of this is an indictment of Obama.
Only time will tell… what exactly does he need to do to prove that he doesn’t hate Jews.. wipe out Iran? You’ve just admitted that you’re going to consider Obama an anti-semite until he can “prove” otherwise, even though he’s already said he’s not, and his policies have shown that as well. I doubt you are so quick to judge Republican politicans who rush to DIRECTLY court pastors like Jerry Falwell. I’ve actually never heard those politicians disavow the outrageous statements of some evangelical leader.
Obama on the contrary not only condemned Louis Farrakhan as an anti-Semite but also condemned the award. This debate is over, because despite all that, you still think he hates Jews.
Chen,
If you don’t like the format, you don’t need to post here. If you don’t like the way I point out a simple fact or how I post, boot me. Chen, I know you to be biased because you have a gaping double standard in your judgement. I used to think you not scared to be challenged.
King,
LOL. You need to read my post to Chen on begging the question – it’s how you debate. Two things I know for sure. It would be real hard for anybody to “run to” Jerry Falwell; (2) you are a bigot toward Evangelicals, tacit in your approach. Your choice of religion under the guise of Christianity – liberal politics. No need for me to go any further.
Actually King, you would be wrong in your accusation of me calling Obama an anti-Semite. I don’t know that.
What I do know is this: to affiliate with obvious anti-Semites shows a real lack of judgement IMHO.
Tex-
1. Again, I’m not going to boot you Tex. This isn’t LGF.
2. Bias. Is this about the emblems? I don’t know what else to say, If you want to think my judgement is slanted, fine. I suppose I could have given Sliquid some Ad Hominems in there, but I would have had to give them to you as well.
3. If you think the the format doesn’t invite challenges, well, I’m sorry. Do you have suggestions on how it would be better? Like, should I take Sean Hannity statements about Obama from his site and attack them?
#1 Ah, you know as well as I do Chen, with dynamic IP addresses and numerous email addresses, it’s almost impossible to boot somebody anyway. However, I like you enough, if you told me to go, I would go – no sock puppets for me. Charles Johnson, you’re not. Be glad. If you were a pretentious bully, I wouldn’t be here.
#2 The emblems were only a symptom of the problem.
#3 {snicker} Well, I guess we could try that. I think you ought to present the information as you see fit. I’m simply pointing out the weaknesses in the format as it has been debated here. However, doing this issue by issue is a great idea.
What would be interesting is to see each probable candidate’s stance and debate the differences and the merits.
Sliquid,
So you from old KC, huh? Shoot, we could be brothers – I’m a Jayhawks fan. KC is a nice town…I actually like the way KC does Christmas more than NYC.
Noted from your previous tax statement (no pun intended).
Sliquid,
Arguably England, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland…
Final statement…England, no way. Horrible racial strife. Ask any Jamaican residing there. Though I can’t speak for the others, think you would find they’re anything but multi-racial.
Besides, if blacks had it better in these countries adn were welcome, ask yourself why wouldn’t they be attempting to immigrate from Africa, Haiti, or others in droves?
He’s not affiliated with Louis Farrakhan, and has condemned Farrakhan’s anti-semitism before.
Do you show any outrage against the Republicans who affiliate themselves with John Nagee?
King,
I can tell you’re really tuned into Evangelism. The man’s name is Hagee, not Nagee. Can you get me an example of Hagee’s blatant racism and support of a man like Louie? Because if you can, I’ll kiss your ass.
Since you obviously don’t know Hagee, let me fill you in. Hagee is married to a Hispanic with five children. His congregation is possibly the most “diverse” concerning race I’ve witnessed in the nation and probably contains more Hispanics on any given Sunday than a mass in El Paso.
You think I’m lying, why don’t you tune in for once and take a look for yourself? Lord knows you might learn something.
King, you would have made the perfect juror for Johnny Cochran. Unbelievable…
@Tex…Hagee would seem to be an unlikely candidate for your liking. He is a pro-Zionist,pro-rapture disgrace to Christianity. Blacks in England do better than Jamaicans.Blacks in France also providing they’re not North African Muslims. Each hyphen group is disliked due to nationality not necessarily skin color. A similar phenom can be seen in America where people of color (black) don’t like Haitians because-well “they’re Haitians”.As for “black immigration”. In Europe and to a degree America the new immigrants are coming due to economic realities of home nations not skin color.Americas new immigrants tend to be Latin America and southeast Asia.Again they too leave for economic reasons although we could go on and on about the Latin America class/caste system. Sneaking back to something resembling post related Obama was early on seen as “not black enough.”
Debate is open here;however,one should not assume debate in a net forum will necessarily lead to conversions. I can’t imagine anyone with a comment not deleted has any standing in saying there isn’t an exchange of ideas. Netiquette issues aside (and they’re not lacking here imo)the coldness of internet conversations rob us all of the subtle human nuances of face to face conversations.
In closing. The WPBA is a voluntary entity that affords people that are willing to engage.Not to pimp here but some of the Right of centers are slowing. I myself am coming off a post Patriots post crappy Super Tuesday hiatus.The tag is about to veer hard starboard .
Blacks in England do better than Jamaicans.Blacks in France also providing they’re not North African Muslims
But that’s not the point of the debate. The question is where do blacks do better than they do in America – specifically blacks who state they are still oppressed from slavery? The obvious answer: there is no place. Otherwise, they would immigrated years ago. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong and will bet some serious dollars – I can quote black who have stated as much.
I have little fear about the net veering left or right. Where I’m going is a minority and has little concern of how all of civilization floats one way or the other…whatever happens, happens and will can change that.
As far as Hagee, don’t misunderstand; I’m no real fan of him or his preaching. I simply contend he is no racist. However, He is a pro-Zionist,pro-rapture disgrace to Christianity.
I am both pro-Zionist and a rapture believer too. You’ll need to consider me a disgrace, I suppose.
@Tex I see your point I just see the issue from a different angle. Your bet is a safe one. Of course blacks do better in America than some other locations primarily due to the fact that they’re in America not because they’re black.
As for the closing I’m not making a judgment on you.My disgrace comment goes to the likes of Hagee,Falwell and Robertson et al.Twisting scripture to produce $$$&power for oneself is pretty worthy of tables being overturned in the Temple as far as I’m concerned. I just need to explain something though. For me (and others) there’s a difference between an Israeli and a Zionist.I support the existence of Israel I don’t support Zionism.As for the “rapture” as a rule we won’t know when He comes and Israel,Zion or anything else is unlikely to cause it.That hopefully clarifies my context.
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20060814&s=new_christian_zionism
“So you from old KC, huh? Shoot, we could be brothers – I’m a Jayhawks fan. KC is a nice town…I actually like the way KC does Christmas more than NYC.”
Yup. K.C. Good ole’ cow town. It’s mostly nice here anyway…
“Final statement…England, no way. Horrible racial strife. Ask any Jamaican residing there. Though I can’t speak for the others, think you would find they’re anything but multi-racial.
Besides, if blacks had it better in these countries adn were welcome, ask yourself why wouldn’t they be attempting to immigrate from Africa, Haiti, or others in droves?”
That’s not really true. “Racial strife” is nothing like it is here. From everything I have read, and the people I talk to, the issue of color isn’t as big a deal as it is here.
And why don’t they immigrate in droves? Immigration laws I suppose, and it’s not just that easy.
Sliquid,
I disagree with your assessment about racial strife. My opinion is based from a black I used to work with who told me living in Britain for him was terrible. However, I will state it’s only opinion and there’s no way for either of us to prove it. Wikipedia would agree with me but I don’t consider that completely reliable either.
So I’ll frame the question differently. Show me one country where the standard of living for blacks is higher.
Sliquid,
I always thought K.C. one of the more livable “big” cities in America and one of America’s best kept secrets. Got friends there that settled after graduating from KU and my daughter got a nice offer from KU that she eventually turned down to go to school in Texas. KU is definitely a beautiful campus.
There is one thing I disagree with KC folks about, though. Being the connisseur of barbeque, as I would eat it three times I week given the opportunity if my heart would hold out and my waste line not bulge, I still like Texas and Oklahoma’s better, as a rule.
BERMUDA
I win ?
I guess so. Bermuda sounds nice right about now too.
/did ya notice Tex said “waste line”? lol
Chenzhen,
LOL. Yeah, that too! Oops…I’d love to tell you that was a Freudian…but that would be a little obvious I was a liar.
Dammit! I need that preview!
Make that waist line.
in2thefray,
BERMUDA? {snicker} Now, can you prove that?
Here’s my suggestion for typing on a pedantic blog.
(1) Don’t get in a hurry!
(2) Don’t do it while you’re watching the conclusion of a basketball game and the contest is still on the line.
Yea Tex Slow down! lol It’s like you’ve got your comment form set to burst mode or something.
/hope you had a good weekend
Education and medical systems are excellent. Blacks routinely hold Premiereship and other offices.
Education and medical systems are excellent. Blacks routinely hold Premiereship and other offices.
Simple question: then why are blacks not emigrating to Bermuda in droves? Two reasons of the top of my head: (1) cost of living; (2) jobs, or lack thereof. Give me the demographics by capital income because I say your statistics are completely skewed due to Bermuda’s corporate tax structure.
The affordability of housing has become a prominent issue over the past few years. The CIA World Factbook lists the average cost of a house located in Bermuda in June 2003 as $976,000, while real estate agencies have claimed that this figure had risen to $1.6 million by 2006, and to $1.845 million by early 2007.
While I may cede your per capita income (and I would like to see that broken out by race), there is no way a family income of 50% higher on average would give one a “larger” lifestyle. In fact, home ownership would be virtually impossible on say a $75K family income (50% higher than America).
Blacks routinely hold Premiereship and other offices.
They do in Africa too. Meaningless statement.
Bermuda has one of the strictest immigration policies around. They could change the slogan to “Come spend money get out and don’t even think of taking a job from a Bermudian “! BTW unemployment is 6% Also the Premiership comment isn’t meaningless. They are an integral part of the economy and body politic.
Oops. The housing situation is one many Americans would likely find undesirable. It’s basically lifelong tenancy at a fixed rate. The PLP is working to extend interest free loans etc. for natives for home ownership.Whether the loan could or is expected ever be truly paid off I don’t know.
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