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Michelle Bachmann Said What? (Pt. II)

October 17, 2008

Knowing Bachmann, I might have to make this a recurring theme here in the Chamber.  My ears perk up every time I see her on the cable news networks or web headline, as she represents the Congressional district just to the North of me.  My fellow neighbors must be so proud to see this:

“I wish the American media would take a great look at the views of the people in Congress and find out, are they pro-America, or anti-America.  I think the American people would love to see an expose like that.”

I’m speechless.

Anyway, Bachmann was speaking to Matthews on the subject of McCain’s robo calls (incidentally, a tactic that, in his 2000 campaign, McCain had denounced).

Also see:  Bachmann: Alaska’s Caribou Will Love Oil Drilling ‘Because Of The Warmth Of The Pipeline’

And, of course, Part I

Update:  Colin Powell responds.

Update:  Bachmann’s opponent, Democrat Elwyn Tinklenberg, has raised $640K since she made the comments.  Oops.

91 comments

  1. I’m a little confused as to why someone would run for an American office if they’re anti-American.

    Getting elected isn’t easy. It seems there ought to be an easier way to stick it to the man besides actually becoming the man.


  2. I’m glad you said something Mike, ’cause I’m still speechless over here. I’m not sure where to begin.


  3. I’m a little confused as to why someone would run for an American office if they’re anti-American.

    Why? What faster way to implement anti-American policies than from the top? That’s been the left’s M.O. in theology and academia. Though the lady is not terribly eloquent, she makes a valid point. Consider the bad finger connections Obama has off the top of my head:

    (1) Jeremiah Wright – spiritual advisor for 20 years, baptisted own children, Obama’s profound influence as he attested before throwing Wright under the bus.

    (2) Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn- self explanatory

    (3) Frank Marshall Davis – identified only as Frank in Obama’s memories Dreams from My Father, Davis a radical activist and journalist had been suspected of being a member of the Communist Party in the 1950s. Obama recounted how he visited Davis several times when he was grappling with racial issues.

    (4) Rashid Khaldi – Ayers and Obama voted to donate $75,000 to the Arab American Action Network (AAAN), co-founded by Rashid Khalidi, an apologist of Yasser Arafat and a long time supporter of Palestinian “resistance” attacks against Israel.

    (5) Louis Farrakhan – called Obama “The One” in a NY mosque.

    (6) Hamas – endorsed Barack Obama

    (7) New Black Panther Party – endorsed Barack Obama

    (8) Rev. Phleger apologist for anti-American activities and activist in Chicago that refuses to fly the American flag and has on occasion also used the “God damn America” in his homilies.

    (9) Obama’s campaign staff allowed to fly a Che Guevara flag inside his Houston office

    These are just off the top of my head. I don’t know whether Barack Obama anti-American or not. I highly suspect his racist wife is. At the very least Mike, one could easily attest that Obama has hung with a virulently anti-American crowd throughout his adult life.

    I know that Chen and his minions what to make light of these simple facts, but they greatly trouble me as they should trouble anyone with a love for America.


  4. These are just off the top of my head. I don’t know whether Barack Obama anti-American or not. I highly suspect his racist wife is. At the very least Mike, one could easily attest that Obama has hung with a virulently anti-American crowd throughout his adult life.

    I know that Chen and his minions what to make light of these simple facts, but they greatly trouble me as they should trouble anyone with a love for America.

    I make light because the proponents of the “associations matter” theory seem to ignore the dozens or hundreds of other people that Obama has known and associated with. As he pointed out in the debate, there were other members on that board. There were other people in that church. There are other people who have endorsed him.

    McCain should be ashamed of himself wrt these robo calls, BTW. It’s the same trash that the Bush people used against him in 2000 (the same firm, if what I read was accurate).


  5. I have to admit, I didn’t even know what “robo” calls were at first. Googled it. Indeed, in many ways, I think robo calls are an invasion of privacy. Now, are these latest ones as horrible as the ones the Bush camp unleashed on McCain? No. Didn’t those spread ridicules lies about McCain fathering a black kid out of wedlock? These current ones are at least true. Now we can argue if they are relevant or not, but they are true.

    Chen, it’s simple, man. Obama’s political career was born out of the radicalism of Chicago’s south side. Dead Rabbit is so kind he’s going to give you a better response to this then the one you’re rolling with. Instead of trying to perform the magic trick of making the facts disappear, why don’t you just concede the truth?

    This is basically the same way Dead Rabbit could help Chen on his dates. I would walk you through it step by step via a radio signal in the van outside the Olive Garden. Just repeat the Rabbit.

    Tex: “Chen, do you want me to list the lefty loons Obama has palled around with?”

    Chen (secretly receiving advice from the rabbit): “You know what Tex, don’t bother.”

    Tex: “Don’t bother?”

    Chen: “Yeah, I admit it. But, I believe in the expediency and pragmatism of Obama. You see, the man had to do what he had to do. Obama is a practical man. When he had too, he dropped the Reverend. In the urban areas, he backs faith based initiatives. He backs charter schools in the hood.”

    Tex: So he as no moral compass???

    Chen: “Wrong. He delivers. Idealism isn’t something that weighs him down. It was the idealism of neo-con philosophy that hurt us overseas. While you hear a lot about of the quaky idealism from the power brokers of urban areas, the truth of the matter is nothing works more on the mean streets of south side of Chicago then a realist paradigm. Walk Pulanski street tonight and see how realist you become.”

    There you go Chen. Now you got your mouth piece in, buddy. Look out, it might be a fair fight, but I have a feeling Tex is going to be coming with that right hook known as the Persian Persuader.


  6. I make light because the proponents of the “associations matter” theory seem to ignore the dozens or hundreds of other people that Obama has known and associated with. As he pointed out in the debate, there were other members on that board. There were other people in that church. There are other people who have endorsed him.

    Keeping in line with the recurrent social psychology theme of the General Chen and the ongoing textbook case of “Cognitive Dissonance” at “THE CHAMBER”:

    I am to believe that Obama sat in a church for 20+ years, never hearing an anti-American, anti-government, anti-white/anti-Semitic thing, with your candidate thinking enough of the good Rev. Wright’s message to drag his children along until it became politically inconvenient and unbecoming. And if I am to understand you correctly, being that Obama wasn’t the only one standing with Ayers or Wright or Rashid Khaldi, but with the multitudes, it therefore excuses any guilt by association, including excusing very, poor judgment. Mind you, this isn’t the occasional association but an ongoing pattern.

    You will forgive me for still believing “birds of a feather…” I have this gut feel that what I am witnessing is moral relativism at its best; the beginnings of the new definition of tolerance.

    I was thinking about this last night after logging off, what exactly is it that demonstrates to me how empty I think you and your friends are. And I use your former hero Bill Clinton as an example. Charles Krauthammer said it better than I could so I parrot him:

    What makes it doubly Orwellian is that these charges are being made on behalf of the one presidential candidate who has repeatedly, and indeed quite brilliantly, deployed the race card.

    How brilliantly? The reason Bill Clinton is sulking in his tent is because he feels that Obama surrogates succeeded in painting him as a racist. Clinton has many sins, but from his student days to his post-presidency, his commitment and sincerity in advancing the cause of African Americans have been undeniable. If the man Toni Morrison called the first black president can be turned into a closet racist, then anyone can.

    Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/16/AR2008101603182.html

    I predict there will be no reconciliation Chen, no new hope or change. America will become even more divided, possibly dangerously divided, and the Vietnam Years will look like Jubilee vs. what is to come. Your candidate of reason has been exposed on numerous occasions as a hard core leftist out of the mold of Saul Alinsky. You can spin your supposed moderation and objectivity, but you really ought quit fibbing, mostly to yourself, about a simple fact that is clear as day. You’re not on the net to simply learn as you assert, but to gain the necessary tools to reinforce and attempt to persuade your deep-seated positions.

    I am not sure how you arrived at your philosophical positions (I assume some early rebellion), but I do know that no matter what happens, what becomes transparent and egregious, no matter the history, or the matter, or the purpose, or the reasoning, you will defend a leftist philosophy – nothing will change that. It is your purpose for blogging. You hide your premise under the guise of an open forum, with an invite for all to enter, in the attempt to make yourself appear open minded.

    I truly believe you are only kidding yourself about being ‘intellectually honest’ – hence the cognitive dissonance reference. While just my opinion, I believe you one of the most dishonest political bloggers I’ve read, and a servant of “The One” helping in a small but not insignificant way to attempt to pull the strings. What I have not quite decided: are you really part of that wicked crowd, or just young and naive.

    The bottom line is that you are supporting a megalomaniac so enamored with himself that he publishes his philosophical autobiography, even before real fame and fortune. I assume you see this as a strength of youth and vitality, and a sign of real wisdom. I see just the opposite.

    My one remaining curiosity about you is, other than trying to determine amorality or naivety is, “will you be man enough to admit your error when Obama disappoints, doesn’t deliver, isn’t the man you thought him to be? Or will you continue to spin?”

    That alone will keep me coming to your site.


  7. ….Chen’s mouthpiece goes flying into the second row of the Boston Garden….


  8. I like it when Tex puts the insults aside because he is a pretty good voice for the right. For instance, this is a super-common complaint amongst my conservative friends:

    “I have this gut feel[sic]* that what I am witnessing is moral relativism at its best; the beginnings of the new definition of tolerance.”

    Or, that taking the commonsense moral belief that we should respect everyone under pretty much all circumstances and scaling it up to the macro-level will undermine America’s place in the world. Wright’s notion, while admirable at some level, that it’s not a bad thing to hold ourselves to a universal moral standard and condemn ourselves for failing to do so, might lead to blind tolerance of things that shouldn’t be tolerated (like Communist expansion or Islamofascism or just being plain anti-American.)

    In my opinion, Reagan mostly ignored the notion of a higher standard in pursuit of protecting American interests abroad (mostly because he thought American interests just were that higher standard.) I’m a little worried that Obama might have the opposite problem. I can’t tell if he’s a pragmatist of the kind DR outlines, or an idealist of the Wright-variety.

    My guess is pragmatist, since just about every politician throws their moral sense under the bus when that much power and that much money is at stake. High pubic office tends to have that effect.

    *sorry, couldn’t resist


  9. “just were those higher standards.”


  10. “Why? What faster way to implement anti-American policies than from the top? That’s been the left’s M.O. in theology and academia.”

    So you’re saying that liberal theologians/politicians wanted to destroy theology/America so they spent years studying it and getting tenure-track positions/elected just to do that? Does that really make sense to you? You’re attributing a lot of motivations to people you don’t know. You sound like a psychic.

    Doesn’t it just make more sense that someone disagrees with you on basic issues of ethics and social life?


  11. Mike,

    There is nothing psychic about recognizing the obvious. Do you want me to pick theology or politic? I would think the politic would be more obvious, so how about a little theology? I’ve got a hundred examples – these are only two.

    Mind you…many of these are Haavard, Princeton, Chicago, and Yale. I would call that starting at the top. If if the Jesus Seminar guys don’t satisfy you, how about somebody more familiar? Say the ArchBishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams (now going outside the U.S. bounds)?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3337961.ece


  12. Brainexplosions,

    Well, the intelligentsia doesn’t write dissertations on apple pie vs. pumpkin pie. They lecture about everything that is wrong with America. So, yeah, if everything is wrong, then they want to destroy that “everything”. The far left sees America as evil.


  13. “Doesn’t it just make more sense that someone disagrees with you on basic issues of ethics and social life?”
    Yeah but for good or bad would you deny that from the beginnings of the 20th Century and peaking in say the 60’s a definite and highly organized counter culture has been in action ?


  14. rabbit-

    Instead of trying to perform the magic trick of making the facts disappear, why don’t you just concede the truth?

    I don’t think I’m trying to perform a magic trick. I think its pretty simple really. If Tex doesn’t want to vote for Obama because he can picture him high-fivin Ayers for bombing the Pentagon, or doin’ an Arsenio-style fist pump whenever Wright said something “anti-American”, or meeting Rezko under the bridge at midnight for some shady deal, that’s his prerogative. But picturing it is the magic trick, and not picturing it isn’t cognitive dissonance.

    I’ve acknowledged the facts, and they don’t really bother me. I mean, as a secular heathen, I often wonder why anyone goes to any church. Would I prefer that my candidate for president share that mindset? Sure. Is it a dealbreaker? No, especially since everything that Obama has wrt religion hasn’t been overly alarming. Would I prefer that Obama not sat on a board with Ayers? Not really, and I think I’ve addressed that one. So…

    Tex-

    You will forgive me for still believing “birds of a feather…”

    My point was, you’re not going to get an accurate picture of the bird if you cherry-pick a few others from the flock and make it representative of the whole.

    Back to Bachmann…

    I noticed Capt. Ed tries his best to defend her:

    Michele’s a friend and I know her passion for her country, but she let herself get trapped by Matthews here. She did well until the last two minutes, but she let Matthews get away with characterizing her statements as equating liberal policy with anti-Americanism. That leads to the conclusion that half of Congress hates America, which is ridiculous, and led to the silly notion that someone should “look into” it.

    Ah yes, just blame it on the “gotcha” media. 🙄


  15. Oops…I just did a straw man. My bad.


  16. Chen, a couple questions.

    Does a democratic controlled congress in tandem with a democratic president something that concerns you? Or do you relish that idea?

    Are you honestly fan of Pelosi?

    I personally hate Pelosi. I mean, I loath that person. The depth of my hatred for her doesn’t even make rational sense. It’s more then her politics I think and probably something I should address about myself, to be honest.

    Dead Rabbit Random Thoughts:

    I’ve never seen Obama really do anything courageous or for that matter do anything outside of campaigning. His voting record is liberal and very safe. He is terribly lacking in foreign policy and he has proven that with gaffe after gaffe. He comes from a background of people who hate America. I can’t imagine brining my children to hear Rev. Wright every Sunday. He refuses to admit the surge worked and refuses to admit his strategy in 06 would have lost the war. He is supported by millions of very uncritical minions. Chen, you are one of those minions. Every single thing you blog about defends Obama or goes on the offense against McCain. Do you bore yourself? Honestly, you often times make me sick. I’m not sure why you feel supporting a candidate requires uncritical worship. His tax plan may very well be disastrous for a crippled economy.

    Despite all of this, deep in Dead Rabbit’s gut, I believe Obama to be a good person. I pray he will have the guts to check Pelosi et al when they begin their drunken, lustful orgy of out of wack legislation. While Obama may be supported by many people who I deem to be everything that is wrong with America, his nomination itself will represent everything that is right with America. He is living proof Europe, Rev. Wright, Kay the Chamber hate monger, and Noam Chomski are wrong.

    The Dead Rabbit will not uncritically give Obama a pass like Chen will. However, Dead Rabbit will support the next president, no matter whom, until I see reason not to. Learn from me, Chen. There is more to this American life then your precious little tribe.


  17. rabbit-

    Chen, a couple questions.

    Does a democratic controlled congress in tandem with a democratic president something that concerns you? Or do you relish that idea?

    Are you honestly fan of Pelosi?

    I personally hate Pelosi. I mean, I loath that person. The depth of my hatred for her doesn’t even make rational sense. It’s more then her politics I think and probably something I should address about myself, to be honest.

    I’d prefer they all go, quite frankly.

    There was a poll recently, and the results were that 59% would replace the entire Congress, and 49% think we’d be better off randomly selecting people from the phone book. I’d put myself in the former category.

    Every single thing you blog about defends Obama or goes on the offense against McCain. Do you bore yourself? Honestly, you often times make me sick.

    Well, looking at the Chamberburger might make someone sick, but this is just one example of why your statement is an exaggeration. Heck, this thread is really about Bachmann (but I suppose it does relate to the race because of the context), and the previous thread was about the social dynamics of polling. It it true that as we head into the home stretch of the campaign, the focus here in the Chamber is on the race, and it would probably make sense that I spend a fair amount or time defending my endorsement of Obama for president (and to a certain extent, its drivin by the what you guys offer up in the comments section). But while I can’t help the way the rabbit feels, I might offer up a suggestion if you want a change of subject…

    Near the top of my sidebar, you’ll see a box with my spinning star flanked by question marks. Click it, and the rabbit will be transported to a random Chamber post. You might be surprised at what you find, as you may be taken to last week, or you might stumble upon a post from a year ago. So, if you want to, repeat as needed, and if you land on something that you find particularly interesting, go ahead and play the necromancer and leave a comment. There is no time window for posts in the Chamber, and it is an open book.


  18. Chen, I suppose you were the recipient of some misplaced aggression there. For that I apologize. However, I will ask again, since you didn’t answer it the first time:

    Does a democratic controlled congress in tandem with a democratic president something that concerns you? Or do you relish that idea?

    Chen, I will be watching you very closely on here in the next year. It will be very, very interesting to see how respond to Obama’s presidency.


  19. rabbit-

    Does a democratic controlled congress in tandem with a democratic president something that concerns you? Or do you relish that idea?

    I honestly haven’t given it too much thought, but I know that the GOP tandem didn’t work out so well. Part of me thinks that its worth giving the Dems a shot, but another part doesn’t like the idea of rubber-stamping no matter who is in office. I guess I’ll just have to see how it goes. So I wouldn’t say I relish, no.


  20. So, for a Congress you’d rather see get thrown out wholesale, it’s “wait and see” or “I haven’t given it much thought” when it comes to this dangerous consolidation of power. Illogical.


  21. Your answer is proof, if I may add, of obvious pandering to the Dead Rabbit on your end. It’s impossible to buy into your fuax-populist “sick of ‘um all” motif. Your a bull-shitter, Chen. I think this is what urks Tex so much.


  22. Rabbit,

    I’ll give you a very specific example of why I think Chen dishonest and nothing but a progressive propagandist with an agenda. Same with Rutherford, same with several others at WordPress.

    As you read from above, Chen positions himself as a left of center, but fair and balanced ‘realist’ – a seeker of truth and knowledge.

    Really?

    I’ve been coming here for almost a year. For the first six months I was here, Chen and his lackeys never failed to take every bit of bad news coming from Iraq to beat Bush over the head about our expensive and unjust war. No matter how well the surge was working, if there was a piece of bad news or a tragedy, Chen spun it in the worst possible light.

    Now, just today I read that the current oil production levels in Iraq are now higher than pre-war oil production levels, Iraqi GDP is now at 7%, electrical production now 12% higher than 2007, and as I’ve stated previously, for the last six months, fewer soldiers have died in the Iraqi war than people murdered in Obama’s Cook County. This was the war the Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid called unwinnable, where Sr. Illinois Senator Dick Durbin referred to our military as ‘gulag’, and Ugly Kay calls genocide.

    I ask you Rabbit. In your few months you’ve been here, have you read anything on this site about the surge working, the military succeeding, or the Iraqi war now apparently being won? Have you read any retraction, any mention of good news, anything about destroying Al-Queda in Iraq including the second in command last week, or anything positive about our military? Anything?

    Chen still thinks the MSM (especially MSNBC and CNN) unbiased. I read a comment today that Chen ought to provide a thread for, since I think this guy makes a good point of what the MSM and blogger like Chen really represent:

    – 24 hours after a Toledo plumbing apprentice named Joe had the audacity to hope he could question the economic philosophy of a presidential candidate, the MSM knows and has published every detail of the man’s life.

    – 2 years after a junior Illinois Senator, newly elected and virtually unknown, begins a run for President, the MSM refuses to investigate his background, his published work, his school records, his work as a state senator, and his association with a domestic terrorist who had high political connections in the mob-controlled Chicago Democrat party and who coincidentally and mysteriously avoided prosecution for bombing the Pentagon and the Capitol Building.

    Journalism in the U.S. no longer exists. Partisan propaganda has replaced it.

    Yes, it has…


  23. CORRECTION:

    IRAQI GDP 7% ‘GROWTH RATE’….


  24. rabbit-

    Or, maybe it just proves that I haven’t given it much thought.

    But I don’t know if its fair to characterize my response as “illogical”. There’s some apples next to oranges here. On the one hand, you have my personal opinion that the current Congress has been dysfunctional, and on the other is my thought on the more general notion of a “democratic controlled congress in tandem with a democratic president”.

    For the former, maybe I should clarify and say that lately I’ve been leaning towards favoring term limits for these people, or at least tweaking the rules a bit so that the incumbent doesn’t have such a inherent advantage. There appears to be a tendency for these guys to feel a little too cozy and safe and attached to the powerful, and I think we’re experiencing the downsides of that. And no one has the power to toss ’em all out anyway, so I guess that’s what I meant by the sentiment.

    For the latter, you seem to accept as fact that such a situation would be “dangerous”, while I take a more cautious approach, as I don’t recall such a situation occurring (when was the last time, anyway?). And as it is a situation that would arise based on the collective will of the American people, I think you might be a little hasty in your pessimism (you don’t hate America, do you?).

    You do bring up an interesting concept, however. Would you argue that this idea of a consolidation of power trumps everything else? In other words, should I instead vote for someone whose policies I disagree with based solely on that? Should anyone? Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. So, I say we vote for our people and if the chips fall there then so be it, and I “wait and see”.


  25. Tex-

    I ask you Rabbit. In your few months you’ve been here, have you read anything on this site about the surge working, the military succeeding, or the Iraqi war now apparently being won? Have you read any retraction, any mention of good news, anything about destroying Al-Queda in Iraq including the second in command last week, or anything positive about our military? Anything?

    I stated long ago that the “war” was “won”, and I view the current situation thru the lens of a counterinsurgency. But if you want me to comment on it, sure, I can do that.

    We’ve had success on that front, in that the violence is down and there is incremental improvement there in many aspects of Iraqi life. But seeing as I was against the invasion from the very beginning, I don’t really comment too much on our progress toward putting out the fire that we never should have started, and I’m saving the champagne for the day that we’re not spending $10 bil. a month there and the troops are coming home.

    I would like to see an example of what you think I should retract. I’m curious.

    and BTW, Durbin’s comments were regarding Gitmo

    – 24 hours after a Toledo plumbing apprentice named Joe had the audacity to hope he could question the economic philosophy of a presidential candidate, the MSM knows and has published every detail of the man’s life.

    Now that’s some spin right there. The guy came to the attention of the media because McCain mentioned him more in the debate than any one person in all the previous debates combined, and has made him the posterboy of his latest campaign stunt. So, naturally, the media is going to attempt to satisfy the public’s curiosity of the guy. Did they go too far? Probably. But I don’t think it was done out of some need to defend Obama. I think McCain could have at least given the guy the courtesy of mentioning to him that he was planning on putting him in the middle of the national debate first.


  26. Weird you said that Tex, because I hit that star thingy for the random Chen posts and saw nothing but spin every time. And to answer your question, in the time I’ve been here, Chen has never posted one thing about the positive direction events have taken in Iraq. Not one thing.

    I honestly don’t understand what drives Chen. Is it a sense of belonging? An unconscious desire to be “on the team”? Perhaps a liberal arts education has worn Chen down so much that he believes the normal outlet for such feelings- patriotism-is jingoistic? Or maybe just unsophisticated? Does this void in his life cause him to channel his leisure time into shilling, the castration of his intellect a byproduct?

    I have posted several criticisms of the candidate I endorse. I don’t think I see eye to eye with anyone in the Republican Party. This isn’t due to some cheesy urge to be unique, it’s just because I suppose I’m a free thinking person, if somewhat dim witted at times.

    Ultimately, if Chen wins his imagined “game” what’s the prize? Does he simply go through life, swinging from the proverbial nut sacks of other men?

    Chen, I beg of you. Become Chen.


  27. “But seeing as I was against the invasion from the very beginning, I don’t really comment too much on our progress toward putting out the fire that we never should have started”

    You see, that is exactly what I’m talking about. Given that logic, why did you discuss the war so much when it was going bad?

    I am against the bail out and feel it should never have happened. So far, I feel it to be a disappointment. But, if it appears to start working, I will freely admit that. In fact, I will even go ahead and admit I was wrong. I’ll grow older, learning some shit on the way.

    Tex, you have threatened taking on the biased, unfair role that the Daily Kos et al currently serves if Obama is elected. I deplore that stance. I also feel you, too, should take a “nothing but the facts, maam,” approach to Obama’s performance and not sink to the disgusting, irrational level as the spinsters that hang out in these parts.

    If Obama improves America’s relations around the world, then I will be the first one to admit that. Will you Tex?

    I challenge Tex and Chen to join Dead Rabbit in a Triumvirate of objective reasoning starting today. We will disagree, to be sure, but no more spinning for the man.


  28. The logic of Chen:
    1. Congress is dysfunctional and should be liquidated.
    2. Congress’ power may soon be unchecked.
    3. Let’s wait and see how they do.

    Dead Rabbit’s logic:
    1. Congress is dysfunctional and should be liquidated.
    2. Congress’ power may soon be unchecked.
    3. Let’s take action against this, voting in way that limits the power of a mutually agreed dysfunctional Congress that should be liquidated.


  29. To add a little my bail out analogy: It may be that I will end up remaining convinced the bail out wasn’t worth it (for a host of reasons), yet I will freely acknowledge and even applaud any short term successes of the plan, particularly ones that are “tactical” successes (the choices our leaders make with the money).

    Why can’t Chen do the same with Iraq?


  30. Tex, Rabbit, Alfie-
    Seriously, you guys convinced me a little.


  31. Rabbit,

    Here’s the title of Chen’s support he points to:

    “We Won The War, But Are Losing The Battle Against The Insurgency.”

    And in Chen’s world, that is maximum support and maximum compliment. Case closed…

    If Obama improves America’s relations around the world, then I will be the first one to admit that. Will you Tex?

    A loaded question because I am not believing for a minute our relationship worse with most of the world – at least not the part that cares about America. And that is where Chen (and possibly you) and I part ways. I don’t think Chen and his crowd can even identify the real enemy.

    In addition, in Europe I can point to the last three elections where it was the Conservative Party that has won: (Germany, France, and the London mayor). Including Canada, which has moved decisively right the last two years, I say Bush has led the world, not gone perpendicular to it as Chen would lead us to believe. That determination is open to debate I understand, but you would have to provide far better definition. For instance, befriend who? Iran and Syria at the expense of Israel? Russia at the expense of the Ukraine and Poland? China at the expense of Taiwan?

    So who do you think our relationships should improve with Rabbit for me to come to a conclusion? Russia, Hamas, Hezballah, Syria, Iran, etc…? See, that question is impossible to answer because unlike Chen, I think it in America’s best interests to keep our friends close; our enemies closer. Those European polls the left likes to espouse for proof? Guess how they voted before the start of WWII in 1939 and before our military saved their collective ass? If they hate us so, why does Europe and Japan currently appear to be turning right, not left. And I might add in Europe’s cases, a tad hostile towards Muslims? They don’t write books called Londonistan as best sellers in Britain for nothing. That’s MSM spin…

    Here’s my other concern. Say the economy comes back in 2009-2010 with gov’t having little or nothing to do with it? Do I also give Obama credit for that like they did with Bill Clinton in ’94-’95? I’ve asked a million libs to give me the specifics about how Clinton made the economy better. And the only thing they can reply is “he was the President.” So what? In my previous job, a Sr. VP liked to take credit for the success of the company – the day he left, nothing changed. It was serendipity that he happened to simply be there when business got better. Cause and effect mind you is open to opinion and the left loves to spin about taking credit.

    I really do think I’m fair – or at least I make the attempt to be fair. Like you, there’s no Republican I am beholden to, nor is their one I particularly think excellent. I don’t think McCain a particularly strong candidate unless opposed to a socialist like Obama. There are very few politicians I hold in high regard.

    and BTW, Durbin’s comments were regarding Gitmo

    What does it matter whether Durbin’s comments about Gitmo or his comments about Abu Ghraib? The statement stands…he dissed the military and referred to them as Nazis. Then he cried on the Senate floor when America blew up. By the way, for the record, it was also Durbin who referred to Abu Ghraib as gulags.

    Now that’s some spin right there. The guy came to the attention of the media because McCain mentioned him more in the debate than any one person in all the previous debates combined, and has made him the posterboy of his latest campaign stunt.

    😆 Typical Chen distortion. It doesn’t change the fact of the premise of my comment. We have a man running for President, not Joe Six Pack, who has received less vetting in two years than an ordinary citizen did in 48 hours. Again, why the vigilance about Joe Six Pack when they ignore the man who would be President?


  32. “So who do you think our relationships should improve with Rabbit for me to come to a conclusion? Russia, Hamas, Hezballah, Syria, Iran, etc…? See, that question is impossible to answer because unlike Chen, I think it in America’s best interests to keep our friends close; our enemies closer. Those European polls the left likes to espouse for proof? Guess how they voted before the start of WWII in 1939 and before our military saved their collective ass? If they hate us so, why does Europe and Japan currently appear to be turning right, not left. And I might add in Europe’s cases, a tad hostile towards Muslims? They don’t write books called Londonistan as best sellers in Britain for nothing. That’s MSM spin…”

    Well said.

    My question was indeed loaded and believe it or not, that wasn’t my intent. We are in total agreement about our enemies. And I mean total agreement.

    I think where we part ways is on our allies. Surely we could have had a stronger coalition in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Except for the British, only token forces from the old Eastern Block have had our back. While the world darkened under the shadow of Islamic radicalism, you would think we would have had more true allies.

    Now, I want to make this clear, I do not blame Bush for this. I blame the ignorance of the European people. The European people are irrationally anti-America. They’ve been that way since 1776, the only pause being during the Cold War. This grudge isn’t ideologically based (as you correctly point out with the recent moves to the right in Canada and France) but plain old ethnic hatred. The cowboy hat wearing George Bush played into their dumb headed stereotypes of American culture. The uni-polarity of American power in the post Cold War era only makes anti-American sentiment worse. What if the irrational hatred of Bush/cowboys/America is replaced with equally irrational love of Obama?

    The fact is, European leaders are aware of the common danger of Islamic nut cases. People riding the tube are equally aware of this danger. Only stupid anti-Americanism stands in the way of the West truly squashing the Islamo-fascists. I argue that Obama, by simply being Obama, may sway the multitudes of ignorant Europeans to our cause, giving their leaders more room to fight these maniacs.


  33. The European people are irrationally anti-America(n)


  34. Can I play a little devil’s advocate. Many people have no real choices before them. I don’t know the races in Chens state but I live in Massachusetts. What chance/ choice do I have ?
    I would repeat my offer of having others look to my state for utter failure I think Obama will be. Gov. Deval Patrick was elected for pretty much the same reasons Obama is. Race and a certain party being out of the big chair for too long. Courtesy of Axelrod Patrick actually had the “words mean things” speech before BO and he had “Yes We Can” as a slogan. Anyway today the double D duds of Beacon Hill have seen a taxpayer revolt brew in the form of Question 1 which would repeal the income tax. A min. 225m revenue shortfall and Patricks big plan was uniformly snuffed out by his party cohorts on the Hill. (resort gambling)
    One Party rule is never good even if you’re part of said party.


  35. Are the Euros overly timid or painfully conscious of how easily they can be beaten. Even though they didn’t have a Vietnam (ok the French had a few) they actively avoid hard conflicts. They not only have a big issue with Islamofacism but they have serious issues in their dealings with Russia secondary to energy. Pardon the pimping but: Islamo Nuts grabbing the West by the..well.. and Germanys Merkel wants Putins Pipe in Her


  36. Islamo link is here


  37. Rabbit,

    Then we are in agreement…I agree with everything you said. And your explanation of Europe and their hatred of Bush excellent. What always makes me gag is how the left points to Europe as a model of excellence. Are they kidding us? What do they want? A failed economic model? A socialistic society?

    What if the irrational hatred of Bush/cowboys/America is replaced with equally irrational love of Obama?

    You know what concerns me most about Obama, forgetting for a minute all of his personal shortcomings? I think that Obama thinks that. Consider the statement he made this week: “We are going to change the world…” Think about the megalomania of that statement? It’s mind boggling! And nobody seems to notice the magnitude of these statements but a chosen few. Do you know who that sounds like throughout history?

    Rabbit, I don’t know if I consider Chen evil like I do much of the left. I keep coming back. But I do think Chen willingly ignorant and not near as open-minded as he would like us to believe.

    And Chen, the shame of it is as that I have been highly critical of you as of late, I do think you one of the more talented blog designers I’ve met.


  38. Alfie,

    Interesting, didn’t know you live in Massachusetts. I do pity you, though it is a beautiful state.

    You know how liberals love to throw out all of the Bush failures and his spending policies? Why is the media hardly ever mentions the “BIG DIG”?

    Is there a bigger boondoggle and waste of money than that monstrosity – driven solely by libs for the benefit of a few and having what, a 700% overrun? Being constructed so poorly initially, they’re now being sued because of negligence and death?

    Another liberal failure of colossal proportions…nary a word about that crap.


  39. Alfie,

    I think they literally don’t trust themselves. It’s like trying to drive again after a car accident where you were in the wrong. We’re talking about a continent that caused two world wars, exterminated people wholesale and arbitrarily carved up Africa and Asia into a giant post-Imperialism cluster fuck, leaving the U.S to deal with it all. What they fail to realize is America leads the world now and we will guide them by their trembling hands.


  40. Tex,
    I know, it’s as nauseating as it is unnerving
    Look, I’m not voting for the dude. But what if he delivers? It’s possible, you know. What if Europe eats out of his palm for 8 years, while Obama keeps American interests first? It wouldn’t be the first time Europeans allowed the cult of personality to trump any semblance of normal thinking. This brings me to my initial point. Tex, would you be able to give Obama that credit?

    And by the way, I don’t think Chen is even remotly close to being evil. In fact, I like the interent persona of Chen!


  41. Yes, if I am wrong about Obama and he doesn’t try to implement socialist agendas like health care, punish corporations or individuals with taxes, takes care of our military, and puts America’s interests first, I’ll support him.

    I’ll even be fair in my judgment not holding Obama accountable for floods, hurricanes, and my wife burning the turkey, unlike the left.


  42. “I’ll even be fair in my judgment….”
    -Tex

    Thats all the Rabbit can ask for…


  43. Tex-

    Here’s the title of Chen’s support he points to:

    That wasn’t posted as evidence of support; it was posted as a reference that you and I see Iraq differently.

    And maybe I missed it, but I assume that you had something specific in mind when you thought there was something I should retract. I’ll do it.

    rabbit-

    Dead Rabbit’s logic:

    So I take that as a yes, I should ignore every reason why I prefer Obama, and vote for McCain.


  44. I’m too tired to open this can of worms, but I don’t necessarily think national health care automatically equals socialism. There is a solution out there somewhere.

    Dead Rabbit needs the Rays to beat Boston and he is on his way to winning a play off pool. He will be buying a new bow if TB can win the series.


  45. Yes Chen, I do think that is something you should seriously consider.


  46. Chen,

    And maybe I missed it, but I assume that you had something specific in mind when you thought there was something I should retract. I’ll do it.

    To now provide an update that indeed the surge did work and contrary to your opinion, insurgency is now scarce.

    Rabbit,

    Trust me on this one – you don’t want gov’t handling your healthcare. That is 16% of our GNP. Medicare and Medicaid, though wonderful in theory, are another gov’t nightmare and going broke. And what that will cost you and your children will make the financial crisis pale in comparison.


  47. Tex-

    To now provide an update that indeed the surge did work and contrary to your opinion, insurgency is now scarce.

    My understanding was that the purpose of the surge was to reduce the bloodshed and give the Iraqis room to get the political process moving. Now, I know its complicated, but it would appear that the military did their part in reducing the violence, but the political process is a work in progress.

    Think it will make a good thread?


  48. Ah yes, the wonderful Washington Post…if that’s your only source Chen besides Keith Overbiteof PMSNBC and NY Slimes, skip it. You would do better to keep bashing Sarah Palin.

    The Washington Post is still arguing over if Barney Frank was any part of the financial Fannie Mae mess.

    But thanks for the thought…


  49. Rabbit,

    He will be buying a new bow if TB can win the series.

    I just figured out who you are? THE MOTOR CITY MADMAN! Nug, I’m an Amboy Dukes Fan! Hit a lick of Great White Buffalo.

    Hell no I wouldn’t mess with you! Tex apologizes profusely!


  50. Maybe the rabbit plays the violin? Or the cello?


  51. lol…there are thousands of us “nuges” here, me just being one of them…

    As for chen, I’ll play the cello if you play the skin flute. Hell, Tex, you can go ahead and play the meat whistle. Sounds like a trio. What ya guys say?


  52. I say that I already opted out of your wingnut bonding ritual, remember?


  53. lol


  54. I don’t like the idea of playing “a meatwhistle”.

    Reminds me too much of Kay…


  55. stop….my wife is wondering why I am laughing at the lap top…


  56. Back to Bachmann…

    The exposegate has been good for Tinklenberg. Half a million bucks+ ain’t chump change for the 6th district. So, she got on the local news today and retracted (sorta).


  57. Think Progress? Another shill blogger…even worse than WordPress with a quick read.

    However, to your point Chen, the dumbest thing a politician can do is retract a statement. Bad move on her part.

    I’m telling you Republicans don’t want to ratchet the associations down. They want the heat turned on – heavy and high.

    Half of America knows Obama has a sordid history. And the media has been negligent so we must make the obvious points ourselves. I don’t know Obama anti-American. I do know his closest associates are. Birds of a feather Chen…


  58. I think the the YouTube embed in this post captures how Tex and many other people feel about Obama fans.


  59. oops


  60. Alfie, 😆

    The last few seconds incorporates when Hollywood was actually patriotic, actors like Hope knew how to be funny, act, and understood to shut up and sing.

    Now Hollywood hates America (for the most part), is not funny, can’t write an original script, can’t sing, and are represented best by Sean Penn and MaDonna…


  61. Way double secret off-topic…

    Tex might find it interesting, I’m averaging 12 hits per day on that Cindy McCain/Cryptkeeper thread. About 1400 hits total; the vast majority find their way via google “Cindy McCain Crypt Keeper” LOL

    Also, speaking of double secret, what do you guys think of having a password-protected open thread, just for the regulars? Kind of a behind-the-scenes, misc. backstage pass, anything-goes, uncensored, members only chit-chat, etc.

    As far as I know, the comment updates for such a thread will still show up under “recent feedback”, but only Chamber members can get in. Kinda nice, since it would be easy to see when there are fresh comments. I could keep the link handy near the top in the sidebar (I just need to think of a clever name for it. “Crouching Chen, Hidden Chamber” ? Nah. “Chamber Catacombs”? Hmmm…Better.) I dunno. Maybe I’ll post up a new thread on the subject, take suggestions, and put a poll up.


  62. are you trying to say meat whistles are off topic?


  63. Well, yea. lol

    What do ya think?


  64. Dammit, why do I have to start reading interesting and loooong Chen threads at midnight? Chen, forgive me if I don’t give exact quotes but I’m too tired at this hour to scroll up and copy/paste stuff. Here are my thoughts anyway:

    1. Tex cites Iraq’s improving economic situation. Am I mistaken, or isn’t Iraq sitting on billions of dollars that they could be using in their own defense while we spend the 10B per month that Chen alluded to? Tex, don’t you think it’s time the Iraqi’s stood up for themselves? You get real upset at the US gov’t giving Americans “handouts” but you don’t apply the same standard to Iraq.

    2. Regarding Bachmann, the RNC has pulled the plug on their ad campaign for her. LOL That is priceless. She inserts foot so deeply in mouth that her own party has abandoned her. Another question to Tex, Rabbit and Alfie … Bachmann’s resemblance to Joe McCarthy does not trouble you in the least?

    3. While we’re on McCarthy, dontcha think we ought to take a breath and count to 10 before we start calling folks “unAmerican”? Why don’t I ever see Tex etal concerned over Todd Palin’s association with a political group that wanted Alaska to secede from the United States? Can it get any more “anti-American” than that? I think that one of the reasons why a number of conservatives (ala Bachmann) are sounding borderline irrational is a case of hurt feelings. I mean it. Look at some of the rhetoric here in the Chamber. Conservatives feel like they have been abused by the MSM and liberals for the past eight years and they are hurt to the point of being angry.

    4. While we’re on anger, I am also surprised that Tex, Rabbit, etal have not expressed one iota of concern about the dangerous level of public discourse going on today. Do you guys really want a war? ‘Cos I’m telling you, if folks don’t start putting themselves in check, some bad stuff is going to go down and it won’t be pretty. I don’t think we’ve seen this level of anger and tension since the 1960’s. Regardless of our political beliefs, we should all be calling for the tone to be calmed down a notch.

    5. I would guess that the conservative wing of the Chamber considers themselves strict constitutionalists. With that assumption, I ask why do you think the founding fathers didn’t proscribe in the Constitution one party rule? Obviously they were not so concerned that there might be a Federalist legislative majority and a Federalist President. Our checks and balances ensure that those who adjudicate be separate from those who legislate and from those who enforce. That separation of duties was deemed sufficient by the framers. Are you now in favor of a Constitutional amendment that prohibits the executive branch from being in the same party as the legislative? Perhaps we should do a variation of the British system and have the minority party of Congress appoint a President and Vice President from amongst themselves thereby ensuring a two party government?

    6. Finally, concerning our relationship with Europe. Was it just a daydream or didn’t we have the compassion and support of every civilized country on the planet in the days immediately following 9/11? What happened to that support? Did the Europeans just get bored with us? Or perhaps, our arrogant unilateral preemptive foreign policy rightfully pissed a few people off. Tex and Rabbit, do you flatly deny that we squandered the good will that came our way post-9/11?

    7. Finally (yeah, really finally this time), speaking of 9/11 … and I know this is not an original thought on my part … several pundits have already said it. Since according to Palin etal, there is now a good, decent, real America consisting of small towns and rural church-going folks and then there is that OTHER America, did Osama Bin Laden attack the wrong America? Damn he must be pissed cos he thought he was attacking the real America. If only he’d known, he would’ve flown planes into Wasilla. New Yorkers made the ultimate sacrifice for being American citizens and Palin’s comments are a spit in the face to every grieving New York family who lost a loved one that day.

    By the way, I agree with whoever in this thread said that Tex’s arguments go down much better without the insults. I also applaud Rabbit’s consideration that the future may prove him wrong and he’s willing to admit it if it happens that way. (Tex, I’m not pandering to you, just making an observation. See if you can try answering my points while keeping this thread nearly insult-free.)


  65. I forgot to address the comments about Joe the Plumber. I watched a fuller excerpt of Joe’s exchange with Obama and I’ve gotta tell you he seemed like a conservative audience plant to me. His question was too well put together, too well targeted for him to just be some average Joe. As for the MSM getting into his shorts, perhaps things wouldn’t have been so bad if the Republicans hadn’t propped him up to be something he was not … not a licensed plumber, not an independent, not anywhere near ready to buy anyone’s business for $250K, not paying the taxes he DID owe the gov’t, and not even really named Joe! (OK, I’ll concede that last one since some folks do go by their middle name.)


  66. A plant? Joe the Plumber was standing on his own street playing football with his son? If so, the Republican party is smarter than I give them credit for – insult free “R”.


  67. Tex and Rabbit, do you flatly deny that we squandered the good will that came our way post-9/11?

    “R”, for somebody Haaavard educated, I sure do think you naive. I don’t think we squandered anything. Did you expect Europeans to criticize us like Saddam when we were hit? Nothing has been squandered – France, Germany and Spain have been dissing us since shortly after WWII and will continue to do so until they require our help. They play you guys for suckers all the time.

    How long is it going to be before you wake up and recognize most of Europe is insanely jealous of the United States?

    I’ll make a prediction and there’s some history behind it “R”. Those immigrants to Europe? They’re getting ready to have a major beatdown sometime soon. I think you would be real surprised the level of growing hostility.

    Here Rutherford – another great example of the difference between you and me without insult. I think you must look at Europe as a model of greatness. I look at it as a model of failed secular humanism – the very thing you and Chen espouse.


  68. “R”, I speak only for myself. I apologize for the length of this.

    Though I like Rabbit and would probably consider him a friend if we were to meet, we are still very different. I can’t speak for Rabbit and I won’t. From what I gather from the Rabbit, he’s probably somewhere in between you and me. I’m sure there would be a mutual respect because our differences are issues of discussion. My issues with you are issues of division.

    So many questions to answer – or at a minimum, offer a very different perspective. You would do well Rutherford to listen to what Palin has to say, if for no other reason, so you’ll at least have a small understanding if and when all hell breaks loose. Palin hints at speaking for millions of us…but most of us are much further along in the disdain than she is.

    New Yorkers made the ultimate sacrifice for being American citizens and Palin’s comments are a spit in the face to every grieving New York family who lost a loved one that day.

    Speaking as one those different, rural, inferior, redneck, ruby red state Americans that you look down your nose at “R”, and in some danger of broadbrushing an entire burrough of 2MM when I am sure there are still many good people left in Manhattan, as far as I’m concerned, the Manhattan elite has spit in our face (my face) once again.

    By openly campaigning against our military, mocking my religion led by NY Slimes (and your type), dissing our President and his regime in the nastiest, most corrupt, sleaziest of ways when in reality he’s more protecting them, not us. If you were to try and establish sharia where I live, you wouldn’t need the military to have a war. I can guarantee you we will not back down from a fight – and yet, I do not consider us racists like you do.

    My neighbor Hispanic, his family, new imports from Mexico and they have been more than welcomed into my neighborhood. We don’t perceive them as a threat like your “diverse” crowd imagines. They are treated as equals an shown the same amount of respect as any other family. And I’m always humored when called a redneck by the bluebloods because we are far more friendly and diverse a crowd than the coastal type.

    I’ve watched my own friends and their families make the ultimate sacrifice and then be openly mocked, ridiculed, be falsely accused of committing genocide, being referred to as terrorists, and hate mongers, and million other untrue grievances. I’ve witnessed it on this board. That’s been our thanks. I’m always curious as to why you, or Chen, or that awful revolting pawn clown, or anybody else from the left doesn’t tell the hatemongers like Kay to cool the rhetoric like your fond of doing to me?

    What the NY Times did after Abu Ghraib fiasco was the last straw for me. 44 days of headlines making the American military seem they had repeated the Bataan Death March – the level of hypocrisy, and gutter talk and hate shown our military was more than I could take. That’s been our thanks for our goodwill shown after 9/11, for the lives sacrificed on battle fields, whether you agree with the war or not.

    And by the way, in closer proximity to where I live, that same reciprocation was not shown to us during the OKC bombing. We pretty much took care of our own down here in redneckville, didn’t expect it, and the families didn’t become millionaires in dying – they got little or nothing. We didn’t make the tragedy political like your crowd has. I’ll admit, the circumstance much different, the scale much larger, and the perpetrator domestic, but I have never seen anything more horrific than watching dead, broken bodies of babies being carried out of imploded building, including the two WTC towers collapsing.

    Hate to tell you this Rutherford and I am absolutely sure of this fact. There is half of America you don’t have a clue to understanding.

    However, I have been party to your crowd on many, many occasions, including a part of my education and much of my work, and I summarily rejected your mindset. At the chance of conceit, I think I understand you better than you do me. That’s not bragging or a boast I’m more intelligent than you. But I suspect I’ve had far more exposure to your type than you have had to mine.

    I only speak for myself, but if NY gets hit again, you better be lending your support, because I will offer no help and expect none in return if my place gets hit. Same holds for San Fran, Hollywood, Berkeley, and a host of other completely rotten towns.

    I openly admit my disdain for the progressive type, the Hollywood jetset if you will, and it has gone way beyond disgust. I pretty much do look at you as the enemy. Perhaps what you either fail to understand or dismiss, there has been a war going on for some time. It’s a battle of the culture – you don’t like ours; we don’t like yours. You call it a political battle of wills – I call it a spiritual battle of wills. You think us dumb and uneducated; we think you haughty, amoral and gullible. That is a fact.

    As far as I’m concerned, there are now two Americas. Much has changed in the way I think “R” since 9/11. If that concerns you, you and your crowd should have thought about that long ago.

    There will be no reconciliation, no matter who wins. Frankly, I’ll vote as is my responsibility, but I’m beyond really caring who wins. I will take care of my own. I suggest you begin to do the same.

    Sorry if this sounds harsh. I don’t mean for this to come across as personally threatening because I have no wish to harm anyone. But that is what it has come to for me. And I believe I speak for a large multitude.


  69. Sorry “R”,

    Medical school does strange things to one’s hours.

    Why don’t you prove to me your honesty by refuting your fellow Democrat (notice the lack of insult again) honestly.

    http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/081017light.html


  70. Sorry to jump in late, but thanks for introducing me to a new goosestepper there Chen. Wow. And BTW, I’m not anti-American. By some of this logic if those disagreeing with the current Admin. are anti-American then what does that make those who were cheering on Ken Starr etc.? Honestly. I don’t need some new wingnut to tell me if I’m for or against my country.


  71. Lex,

    You’re being disingenuous and you are better than that. The congresswoman didn’t call people anti-American for disagreeing with the administration. Jeremiah Wright, Bill Ayers, and company go way beyond disagreeing with the administration. They disagree with the culture of western civilization and are most definitely anti-American.

    Though this lady doesn’t impress me as being terribly bright, I don’t necessarily disagree with all she said. If that makes me a goosestepper, well Sieg Heil!

    But if being bright were the measuring stick for admission to Congress, there wouldn’t be many Dimocrats in Congress either.


  72. Tex,
    Thanks for the link. There are two perspectives on this that are worth exploring. First, a couple of weeks ago someone in the Chamber pointed me to an article about Democratic collusion in the current economic crisis. It discussed a number of the issues raised by Mr. Card in the article you cited. I will state unequivocally that the Dem’s had a large role in creating this crisis. They did ignore Greenspan’s warnings. The MSM and I have been quick to too easily lay the blame at Bush’s doorstep. I’ll grant you that.

    But the other side of the argument which is the one you will not like deals with strategy vs perceived motive. If Republicans foresaw this crisis and unsuccessfully moved to stop it, the perception may have been that Republicans are not interested in helping the poor. You see, the problem with having a good idea and a bad reputation is that the latter trumps the former. It’s why being a social conservative sullies being a fiscal conservative. Republicans would make much more headway in this country if they had a reputation for compassion and social progress. Why can’t we have a party that says, “let’s help the weakest of us and NOT go bankrupt doing it”? Instead, we have a party, at least from my perspective, that says no new taxes and to hell with the poor.

    I’m no Bush biographer but I’ve often been tempted to give him the benefit of the doubt that if 9/11 had not happened, he might have made good on this promise of compassionate conservatism. I think he was a man of limited intellectual curiosity who, surrounded by hawk advisers, and a desperate need to impress (or defend) his father, abandoned his compassion and responded to 9/11 with a war on terrorism in the wrong country.

    My exposure to “small town” folk is not as limited as you assume. My wife is from Illinois and I’ve traveled to Texas a number of times on business. If we’re going to speak in generalities, I find the folks in those areas of the country, warm and welcoming. I find the folks in the northeast comparatively cold fish. The problem is, being cold, or even having an intellectual superiority complex, does not make one anti-American. Our country is losing the notion of disagreeing without being disagreeable. And I maintain, after reading your comment, that there is more to this than a purely political stance. There are hurt feelings and a great deal of resentment. We’ve got to get beyond it if the country is going to move forward.

    I was in a business meeting when Timothy McVeigh did the dirty deed. The meeting was interrupted by my manager with the news and we were all horrified by what had happened. The news media followed the story closely. Our hearts went out to the people of Oklahoma City. What did you want from the east coast/west coast elite that day that you didn’t get? Where might I ask, was the “real America” when scores of people died or lost their homes during Katrina? Do you know that some parts of Louisiana are still not rebuilt years later? Of course you do.

    I’m counting on Obama, should he be elected, to do one thing more than anything else. I’m counting on him giving this country a sense of common purpose again. He claims the ability to bring people together. Let’s see if he can pull it off.


  73. “R”,

    While I’m here, I am glad I read that. It gets to the heart of the matter than I think separates us and why we will never like each other, or agree with each other. I’ve given you a lot of grief, some of it over the top, when I probably shouldn’t have. But people like you piss me off. I don’t know whether you say the things you do out of evil intent or out of ignorance. I say you and I don’t mean personally – more specifically liberals like you which you are a party to. Let me try to explain why…

    You see, the problem with having a good idea and a bad reputation is that the latter trumps the former. It’s why being a social conservative sullies being a fiscal conservative. Republicans would make much more headway in this country if they had a reputation for compassion and social progress.

    Let me grant you that for a minute that Republicans have become known as the party of the heartless. By why is that? Is it the truth? Or has become a political game, propagated by the mass media and the Democrats are simply better at duping the voters into believing that?

    Rutherford, I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that social conservatives, more specifically Christian social Conservatives, are the most generous people in this land we all call home. Every study for the past 50 years shows Evangelical Christians the most compassionate, most generous, most giving with their own time and money. I can not tell you how many volunteer activities I personally have been included in from hospice to Habitat for Humanity, virtually all sponsored in some way by Protestant Churches or Catholic Charities. Same goes for my wife. And I will tell you that most of my Christian friends do the same. There is nothing unique about me, the Mrs. or my buddies and their families.

    You ask about Katrina and where was the real America? Do you have any idea what has happened down here and what is continuing to happen as you and I speak? I don’t think you do. You won’t read this in your hometown media. My own hometown has taken in hundreds of LA residents and we are 500 miles away. You don’t hear that, do you? My own youngest daughter spent six weeks in New Orleans this last summer, sponsored by the Catholic school she attends, mostly on mom and dad’s dime, to build a home for the homeless. I got the pictures to prove it. And we don’t know a soul that lives in N.O. There was absolutely no benefit to us personally, nothing to be gained politically. See, you are speaking out of complete ignorance and that is what makes me mad. I would like to ask you, is it a game? Or do you simply not know the facts? I don’t mean that to be hateful, but you couldn’t be more wrong.

    The other day you criticized Christians about not caring about what happens to the unborn after they leave the womb. Again, you couldn’t have been more incorrect if you tried. I can’t speak for your parts, but where I live Catholic Charities and Mend Crisis pregnancy centers care for hundreds of newborns all the way thru the toddler stage – and most of the babies are minority I might add. All of it is done from church tithing, fund raisers, and the like; absolutely no federal assistance nor would they take it. I know, because last month, though I’m not working, I gave 1,500 bucks to help support local crisis pregnancy center. That is not to pat myself on the back because I’m Mr. Wonderful. I do that because I am adamantly pro-life; all life. It would make me the hypocrite not to do so since there is little else I can offer for support.

    So now maybe at least you can understand why I have gone ballistic about the criticism of our military, whether one supports the war or not. I have witnessed members of our military being treated from many members of your party (John Murtha and Dick Durbin for example – both who are despicable), and the MSM treat them as criminals when the vast, vast majority of our soldiers are heroes in every regard. They couldn’t be more mislabeled.

    Rutherford, I am not accusing you of doing that but if you are letting it happen, then you are part of the problem. And so is Chen, and any of the other WordPress liberals that let vicious people spew those lies and filth.

    About the financial mess. I don’t solely blame politicians, either party, for the problem. I blame them for providing the mechanism that created the problem. But I’ll say this “R”. I believe your party morally bankrupt. Your politicians pander for votes every four years and do little or nothing to address the real problem of creating a dependency. I can not for the life of me understand why people can not see thru that crap. I should add that I consider that the most hideous form of racism; intended, or not.

    So now maybe you better understand why no matter what happens in this election, there will be no reconciliation until apologies are given and the real truth becomes known. And I am absolutely sure that Obama is not man to remedy that. In fact, he is just the opposite so I expect things to get worse – much, much worse.


  74. Rutherford,

    I just thought of something. Let me ask you a fair question and I want you give me an honest and sincere answer. No games between us this time. I know you are smart enough, so I want you ponder something for a minute.

    My wife is currently trying to finish her career near Houston. I play Mr. Mom until the oldest graduates from high school this year while the wife is away, me trying to slosh thru towards a 2nd career and not doing real well at either for the minute.

    Six weeks have passed since the hurricane – my wife has a condo so she leaves plenty early and comes home.

    But, thousands are still homeless in Galveston and even some in Houston proper and the surrounding areas. My wife’s boss lives 40 miles from the shore and just got electricity restored. I understand that last week, there are still hundreds of intersections, some major without traffic lights working. Businesses are still closed. Utilities not restored. You know the process…

    If Katrina was the model, should be chaos, right? Fourth biggest city in America – much larger than N.O., far more widespread damage. Why are we not hearing about all the problems on every newscast?

    Do you honestly think FEMA did so much better a job this time around than with Katrina? The federal government saved Texas? Or is it possible, just possible, that maybe we have a different set of local characters dealing with the problems this time? Maybe a more capable clientele, maybe with a higher character content? Managing to get buy and not playing politics while doing so?

    I’m not patronizing you, I promise. I actually would like your assessment.


  75. You’ve successfully pointed out that we live in a complicated world which is all the more reason we must avoid extremism at either end of the political spectrum.

    I don’t know the ethnic makeup of Galveston but I will assume it is predominantly white (correct me if I’m wrong and I’ll go back to the drawing board on this). If I am right, then I would grant you that there is a contingent in this country that likes to politicize the hardships of minorities. While there is no excusing FEMA’s piss poor performance in New Orleans, I am sure there were those who used the tragedy to construct an us vs them argument against conservatives. In the case of Galveston, no such anti-minority case could be exploited. So, to some extent, when bad things happen to black people there is outrage and when bad things happen to white people there is less outrage. That’s media skew. (However I do reject the implication that the citizens of New Orleans weren’t as scruffy and resourceful as those of Galveston. There was better preparation for our recent hurricanes both locally and federally than for Katrina, but I digress.)

    YET, this is the same world where every amber alert about a missing white blond blue eyed girl gets on the evening news and missing black girls get no air play at all. My point is that if we are looking for fairness, both conservatives and liberals will be holding their breath for a long time.


  76. Oh I forgot to address your earlier comments concerning the good done by religious charities. I am SO conflicted on that one, seriously. I am very uncertain if the good done by religion outweighs all the evil that’s been done in the name of religion. But that is a subject for another thread. Perhaps when the election is over and we have exhausted all the political threads, Chen will get us started on a religious one!


  77. Tex-

    If Katrina was the model, should be chaos, right? Fourth biggest city in America – much larger than N.O., far more widespread damage. Why are we not hearing about all the problems on every newscast?

    My guess is that it (lack of media coverage) is due to the visuals of the flood, the high fatality count, the way the story played out (i.e. gargantuan hurricane eyes N.O.; “Will the levees hold?”, nightmare scenario), and the fact that this is an election year.

    Not that its an excuse, but that’s what I see as the difference.

    Do you honestly think FEMA did so much better a job this time around than with Katrina? The federal government saved Texas? Or is it possible, just possible, that maybe we have a different set of local characters dealing with the problems this time? Maybe a more capable clientele, maybe with a higher character content? Managing to get buy and not playing politics while doing so?

    Hard for me to say, what with the aforementioned lack of media coverage and all that. You might have a point there.


  78. I hate rehashing Katrina. It isn’t black or white folks it’s GREEN. The majority of people left to drown and otherwise suffer in NO were poor.They needed the school buses that Nagin left parked. Not to be too blunt but it goes without saying that the socio-economic disadvantaged is also too dependent upon the government. Sadly they are also not the best decision makers, even if the thought is there the resources lack. Think about it inner city illegitimacy rates are high for a reason. Inner city vice use exists for a reason (cigs,and booze). Hence even though a guy all the way up in Boston knew a big storm was bearing down on NO the citizens of a city that is BELOW sea level hung out until it was too late. Cat 5 storm,below sea level city,ignorance of citizenry and arrogance of dysfunctional govt. THAT’S A PERFECT STORM FOLKS.


  79. Back on-topic-

    OMG. et tu, Arnie?

    Carlson also took aim at Minnesota U.S. Rep. Michele Bachmann, saying that her controversial remarks of the past week, suggesting Obama may have anti-American views, had led him to endorse the Democratic nominee. After hearing Bachmann’s comments, Carlson said he telephoned former Vice President Walter Mondale, the Minnesota Democrat, to tell him of his plan.

    At one point, Carlson compared Bachmann’s statements to the tactics of Joseph McCarthy, the Wisconsin senator during the 1950s who helped define an era when the patriotism of many Americans was publicly questioned.

    “I don’t want Minnesota to continue to be seen in the national picture as some sort of a land that has these rather strange views — we don’t,” he said.

    OUCH.

    I should have kept that “train wreck” thread going, I think.

    /Carlson was, of course, our Republican governor here in MN from ’91-98.

    In other news: GOP fundraising committee pulls plug on Bachmann


  80. You guys are missing an important point about the comparison of Katrina and Ike.

    First to answer “R”‘s question. I am not entirely sure of the makeup of Galveston. When I’ve been there, it always looks a lot like Houston. Lots of blacks, lots of Hispanics, and lots and lots of whites – and a lot of the women knock outs.

    When people have 72 hours of warning they can do things: (1) they can heed the warnings and prepare; (2) they can ignore the warnings and if it hits, they can run or yell help! Now which one of those do you think would define Texas? Did you see rampant looting, war breaking out, police being shot at? It was the character of the folks you guys! Come on! You all know that…

    Guys, the federal gov’t is no match for natural disasters. FEMA can assist but it can’t solve the problems. Two years ago, it took 48 hours to even clear I-45 to get out of Houston during a hurricane warning. When you’ve got 5 million people trying to abandon the ship, local, state, federal gov’t is helpless. If I do nothing else for you guys (Rutherford and Chen), I hope sometime to convince you guys more government is certainly not the answer…

    Teaching people to fend for themselves is the answer.

    What do you guys really think is going to happen if one nuke in one major city happens to go off? It won’t matter who is President. It will be complete chaos. So you better ask yourself, who is better candidate at preventing the nuke from getting here in the first place?

    You know when I recognized how fragile America was? Virginia Tech. One crazed lunatic brings an entire police force to its knees for an entire afternoon. What do think is going to happen if 500 loons decide to go off at once on a college campus?

    You guys willing to wait around for the white hat to arrive? I’m not…


  81. In other news: GOP fundraising committee pulls plug on Bachmann.

    Chen, thanks for providing a link to back up my assertion made earlier in this thread (although it appears I got the funding org wrong, it was the NRCC, not the RNC):

    2. Regarding Bachmann, the RNC has pulled the plug on their ad campaign for her. LOL That is priceless. She inserts foot so deeply in mouth that her own party has abandoned her.

    It gets even better! We already know that William Buckley’s progeny is backing Obama but the latest news is that Barry Goldwater’s progeny have jumped on the Obama train also! It just doesn’t get any better than this! If you think “conservative”, you think Buckley and Goldwater. And to make matters all the more painful, Goldwater was from Arizona, McCain’s state.

    Tex, Rabbit and the other conservative denizens of the Chamber, just be a bit patient and before not too long, the Republican party will totally implode and then maybe remake itself into a more viable alternative to the Democratic world view. Maybe by 2012, with lessons learned, they can mount a campaign that does not resemble a cross between the Bad News Bears and the Keystone Kops.


  82. At this rate, the only thing that could top these latest developments would be for Bush (41) to endorse Obama a few days before the election. I can see the endorsement now:

    “I know my son and I know just how badly he can screw things up and I’m here to tell ya, Obama is the only one who can clean up this mess, other than Jeb and despite my encouragement, he refused to run.”


  83. Tex–what’s truly fun is discussing these issues with liberal friends and being unafraid to be the patriot that I am. Very genuine and very good at dragging people more towards the center where I actually am. Still, I think this “anti-American” calling is a bit out of hand with Ms. BachmannTurnerOverdrive. Still, she speaks not for Obama but people he has known. Did not McCain speak at Bob Jones U.? I believe so. (And I’m probably one Obama voter you’ll find who doesn’t have much antipathy for McCain at all.)


  84. Rutherford,

    Tex, Rabbit and the other conservative denizens of the Chamber, just be a bit patient and before not too long, the Republican party will totally implode and then maybe remake itself into a more viable alternative to the Democratic world view.

    I disagree – but not entirely.

    I wouldn’t get too cocky “R” because I heard these same words from your type in ’92. Deja Vu, my friend but this time with a far more unqualified candidate, in a far more dangerous world. Remember, the last time you jumped with glee, it wasn’t but two years later that you witnessed not my party, but your’s implode. And I’m not entirely sure your political persuasions and the respective spin (and my hat is off to you, you are good at the spin) will save you this time “R”. I’ll let you figure that out.

    This has happened before and seems to run in a cycle of about 16 years; 1976, 1992 and now. I guess that must be the collective memory of the American public because it seems to be pretty consistent and I can’t believe that is simply random chance.

    See Rutherford, I have often noted the liberal’s worst enemy is most often themselves and I have found, if patient enough, your politic will be exposed as a fraud because it caters to the lowest common denominator. It has no history of real success. It wins elections and then makes things far worse, but Obama is right in that it does have a pronounced effect of implementing real change. Just not the way you hope.

    And recently, I have come to the realization that is what is required. I fight it because I don’t like the pain of what it brings. In short, I don’t think it turns out the way you think Rutherford, and I think your personal euphoria will be short lived.

    ———-

    However, you are right in two respects. There is no doubt the Republican party must change. The fracture has been there for years. Many of us have been screaming (people like me all the way back to 1988) that it isn’t to the center people need to move as you, Lex, and the pundits, and the press would like us to believe, but to the right where both fiscal and social conservatism reign. Every Republican politician drops the name of Reagan but they don’t really think or act like him.

    That is what will happen because if it doesn’t, I see really bad times ahead for America. We are already getting there far more quickly than I ever dreamed. And if I didn’t have children and a wife, I might simply pull up a chair and behold in amazement. But if I am right and this goes well beyond the superficial garbage of politics or simple differences of opinion no matter the divisiveness, it is really incredibly frightening. Perhaps I don’t have the sense to be scared just yet.

    Secondly, the Republican leadership caved on its principles and got caught up in Washington stage 20 years ago. The party has been in a funk long before G.W. took the podium. Truthfully, it is a wonder they’ve been able to sustain much stroke this long.

    I wish you and your party luck. You’re going to need it. There’s a small part of me that is relieved to watch somebody else be handed the reigns. And as a citizen I am tired of choosing between two lessor candidates, which I am again forced to do this time.

    The press and the pundits, the leftist bloggers, and the rest of the neo-pagans will use Bush as an excuse for the failures, and that will probably work for a time. But after a few years, I believe it will become apparent America made a very grave mistake, your candidate will be incoveniently reminded that the American public very fickle, and then “R” you and your crowd will be without excuse. Or, the America you think you know “R” will look much different. Either way, I now predict it will happen quickly.

    But…if I am mistaken and if you can fulfill all these grandiose promises, if the candidate of “hope and change” is all he’s promised, you’ll have my vote in 2012. That is a promise.


  85. Bachmann’s comments are starting bleed over to other races now.

    I know Bachmann has been trying to distance herself from what she said, making lame excuses about being ‘trapped’ and how she’s being ‘spun’, but I think she really thinks this way. She really views her Congressional colleagues’ positions through the “anti” or “pro-American” lens. Its pretty disturbing, and that’s why she’s put herself in such political trouble with this.


  86. Chen, I am tickled to death at the speed with which Bachmann has met with negative reaction. That’s the beauty of the 24 hour news cycle and the series of tubes known as the Internet. 🙂

    There’s a small part of me that is relieved to watch somebody else be handed the reigns.

    Tex, my wife has a theory with which I often find myself agreeing. She has maintained from back in the Republican primary days, that the ‘Pubs do not want to win this next election, i.e. they, like you, will be relieved to watch somebody else handed the reigns. Much of what has happened bears her theory out, from the bizarre original slate including Duncan “we need to get porn out of the ghetto” Hunter to the even more bizarre choice of Sarah Palin as running mate. It seems as though at every turn, the Republicans are making fatal choices. Now, Republicans are jumping off the ship as though it were the Titanic, with McCain advisors saying they’ve sent in absentee ballots for Obama! It’s a total disaster.


  87. […] October 25, 2008 I’ve had plenty of time to ponder my post on the Bachmann incident (I was initially speechless), so I decided that a follow up post was in […]


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