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About This “But He Kept Us Safe” Meme…

December 5, 2008

I have to apologize to my fellow members of the WPPBA, ’cause I really haven’t been paying as close of attention to politics as I should as of late.  So, I return to the fray… 

I couldn’t help but notice the recent hubub over the “Bush Legacy Project“.   Interesting, but not unexpected, all things considered.  I suppose the operative word there is “project”.  Hmmm…”project”.   When I think of “projects”, the first thing that comes to mind is one of those assignments that teachers hand out to groups of high school students.  And in the history of “projects”, I imagine that this would go down as one of the tougher ones.   Just think, having to come up with positive things to report on the Bush presidency.  I’d hope those kids would be graded on a curve.

But, hey, someone’s gotta try, right?   So, enter Peggy Noonan, who gives it a shot in today’s WSJ:  ‘At Least Bush Kept Us Safe’

Back to the Christmas gathering. There was no grousing about John McCain, and considerable grousing about the Bush administration, but it was almost always followed by one sentence, and this is more or less what it was: “But he kept us safe.”

Now, I’m not sure who hangs out at Peggy’s Christmas gatherings, but I can’t picture that statement resonating with anyone besides the zombie-eyed Bushbot kool aid overdosers that make up that 20% of Bush’s approval ratings.  Maybe it’s just me.  I guess if you’re that desperate to look at the glass as full even when it’s nearly empty, this kind of notion probably elicits a few head nods in a room full of like-minded individuals.  But the reality is that it’s so hollow that the sound of bullshit splattering actually echoes when shoveled with this sentiment.    Yep.  {{{{{echoes}}}}}  Here’s why…FILES-US-ATTACKS-BUSH

In order to really embrace this idea, one has to commit to a couple intellectually dishonest assumptions.   The primary one, of course, being  the assumption that the whole “keeping us safe” concept didn’t get added to the list of presidential responsibilities until after 9/11 (’cause certainly 9/11 was a far cry from “keeping us safe”).  The subset of that would include the “out of the blue” arguments I’ve heard from Krauthammer and others; as if the president and the entire U.S. intelligence community had never heard of Al Qaeda or bin Laden, and no one had ever thought about counter-terrorism before that day.

Since this one is pretty obvious, the 20 percenters usually follow “he kept us safe” with the qualifier “since 9/11”.   This is a nice segue into the next assumption…

A secondary assumption is that one really understands al Qaeda’s capabilities, motives or intentions.  After 9/11, no doubt many of my fellow Americans believed that AQ’s goal was something along the lines of systematically striking at every major city until we were all dead.  The attacks supposedly (perhaps because of their magnitude) marked the beginning of some onslaught, and we were expecting to be faced with wave after wave of terrorist plots and bombings.  A crisis that only a strong president could do what needed to be done to prevent the imminent Armageddon.   Or something like that…which is supposed to give the weight to the “after 9/11” portion of the meme.

The problem is, this mindset ignores whether real terror threats to domestic targets have actually increased or decreased since 9/11.  But we’re to assume, I guess, that they’ve increased.  As Noonan correctly pointed out, much of that information is kept out of the public view, so we could speculate all day long, but just entertaining the question leads one to ponder the second one:  Has Bush kept us “more safe” than, say, Clinton?  And once you’ve gone there (comparing to other presidents), you’ve effectively watered down “he kept us safe” as a notable accolade. 

Or, it could very well be that we haven’t been attacked since 9/11 because, frankly, they haven’t really tried to.  Maybe they haven’t felt the need to.   To use a hockey metaphor, it’s hard to congratulate the goaltender that lost a 1-0 game, even though he only let in one goal.  Many, including myself, have suggested that 9/11 was less about killing Americans, and more about provoking a response.   Bush certainly gave them a response, and we got a giant, expensive, and deadly mess in Iraq (and occasionally a mocking by the al Qaeda creeps via the internet along the way). 

Anyway, after eight tumultuous years, and where we find ourselves now, its kinda telling that people like Noonan are posting up op-ed’s saying “Hey, at least we weren’t bombed again!”, and presenting it as the primary thing that matters.  It probably sounds good to the aforementioned faithful, but I don’t think it’d help the grade out on the “project”.

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Update:  Meanwhile, over at the discussion-free zone dubbed JammieWearingFool, JWF posts the following:

Say what you want about George W. Bush, but you cannot deny him this. Despite every effort made by the media and the left to undermine his policies designed strictly for this purpose–to keep us free from terrorism post-9/11–he got the job done, and for that he has earned his legacy.

That’s right, not only was Bush doing battle with al Qaeda, he was winning in spite of the plans of the evil media and half of the American citizens.  No doubt, it must be tough for him to keep that cape hidden under his suit.

Anyway, aren’t we counting our chickens before they hatch a bit here?  There’s still 40-something days left in Bush’s term, after all.   But should the unfortunate occur, I have no doubt that voices like JWF’s and Noonan’s Christmas Coctail Team will go moaning on about how much we could really use a Republican taking the oath Jan. 20 instead of Obama (because of those innate national security skills, of course) or blaming the media and/or the left for “undermining” the policies of the wise GWB.

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145 comments

  1. Holy crap man, let it go already.

    Can’t you even give the man credit for one single thing?
    Obama won…Bush will be out next month. Time to move on with your life.


  2. Can’t you even give the man credit for one single thing?

    I gave him credit for some things, but not this.

    Anyway, blame talk radio, ’cause they’ve been on this lately. Using words like “visionary” and all that. I mean, c’mon.

    Obama won…Bush will be out next month.

    LOTS of time, unfortunately. I don’t think it could come soon enough for most people.


  3. Well, so much for unity.

    Am I the only one who likes Bush and likes Obama? If this keeps up, Lefty is just sowing the seeds for more division in this country. Oh well….the beat goes on.

    c’est la vie


  4. Sage-

    Am I the only one who likes Bush and likes Obama?

    Did you like Clinton?


  5. Did you like Clinton?

    As a matter of fact I did.
    I didn’t like his wife…still don’t…but I did like Bill.

    And how do you do that quote thingy? You told me once but I forgot.


  6. I like baby hippos too. :’)




  7. You really need a preview button on this thing, Chen.


  8. And maybe some smiley’s.


  9. And an edit function would be good too.


  10. <blockquote>what you are quoting</blockquote>

    Who was the last president you haven’t liked?


  11. I guess I’m spoiled hanging out at ThumperTalk?


  12. Oh and Sage, more than 2 links in a comment will send it to the moderation bin.


  13. Who was the last president you haven’t liked?

    Probably Carter. I was 15 when he was elected so I really wasn’t politically aware. By the time he was running for re-election I was in the Marines. He had just attempted the failed rescue of the hostages. Us military personnel were very disappointed in him. Not to mention the economy was terrible.

    I’ve been disappointed in presidents since then, but I have never really disliked any of them. I understand that they all try to do the best that they can. They are not gods…they’re just human. Nixon was bad I guess, but I was just a little kid at the time so I really don’t know. I guess Carter wasn’t really a bad guy in and of itself, he just wasn’t a very effective president.

    Bush has done what he could. The economy wasn’t his doing….it’s a GLOBAL recession. I don’t know, I guess I’m just mellowed out in my middle age?


  14. Well who did you vote for last month?


  15. Well who did you vote for last month?

    Well, it wasn’t Ron Paul.


  16. Actually, I’m not sure even Nixon was bad. He was just batsh*t crazy. A very paranoid insecure man. Sorry to blogpimp Chen but one of my recent posts deals with this whole issue of how we elect flawed men to the White House and perhaps to the surprise of Tex and Rabbit, it strikes a somewhat sympathetic note.

    Clearly when Condie reads a memo received before 9/11 that says “Bin Laden to strike America”, it is clear that Bush didn’t do the grandest job of keeping us safe. Maybe we were playing these guys (i.e. AQ) cheap? I don’t know. All I know is the attack was brilliant in its simplicity and coordination. And I don’t particularly mind if Bush wants to claim that our government learned something from the attack and kept it from happening again. Let’s hope they did learn something from it.

    By the way, on the question of whether these threats have decreased over the years, I can’t remember who said this but some government official said that Obama would have a lot more trouble sleeping at night once he started getting the daily security briefing. This individual said that he dreaded every morning having to open that day’s report and deliver it to the President.


  17. I can see where you’re coming from R, and I’m certainly not going to sit here and assume that the people we elect to the highest office in the land are anything but human like you and me.

    I guess that what has sat at the core of my frustration all this time (and why I still feel compelled to post threads like this) is a) the circumstances surrounding the Iraq war and b) the 2004 election. I still sit here in disbelief that the country re-elected this guy (well, that, and the fact that Kerry got the Dem nom).

    But more to the point of the thread, I’m just calling it as I see it when I see stuff like this. Is there really any direct evidence that any specific Bush policy has “kept us safe”? To me, it all appears circumstantial. Has our engagement in the Middle East diverted the attention of those who would otherwise strike us here at home to our troops instead? I’m not sure if there is any way of proving that, even if there are still those who swear by this “flypaper” or “live bait” or “fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them here” concept. Has indefinite detention at Gitmo saved lives? Waterboarding KSM? I just don’t know. The problem with the lack of an attack since the big one is that it doesn’t really prove much, which is why I’m saying that its a weak point to hang one’s hat on.

    As for what we’ve learned, occasionally I remind netizens that 9/11 could have been thwarted by simply adopting a policy of having cockpit doors locked. The practices of effective counter-terrorism had been modified and improved upon for decades, and that’s just one that was overlooked (or ignored). The 9/11 commission was a good thing, and for every person who wants to repeat the “no attacks since 9/11” line, there are just as many who will point out that Bush was initially opposed to the idea. The question that pops up for me when I think about it is do we really want to learn from this, or do we use it as an excuse to belligerently flex our muscles? Looking back, I think its pretty obvious that Bush chose the latter, and in doing so set us up for decades worth of looking over our shoulder.


  18. Clearly when Condie reads a memo received before 9/11 that says “Bin Laden to strike America”, it is clear that Bush didn’t do the grandest job of keeping us safe.

    Fuck you Rutherford. I swear, you are lowerer than whale shit and completely classless. I expect the juvenile threads like this from Chen because he gets his kicks from being offensive and its all he’s got.

    But you’re old enough and smart enough to at least give credit to Bush for doing a damn good job of taking care of not only this country, but your sorry and ungrateful ass. A lot of blood has been shed for every citizen’s account, and you can’t even be grateful to the man for that? Bush has had to live with some very difficult decisions on account of 9/11 and that man, no matter all his foibles, has never been anything but gracious in eight years, all the while being called the vilest of names from your worthless ilk. If there is a lowest level of hell, I can’t think of a more deserving candidate than you.

    The fact you can’t even bring yourself to admit as much tells me it’s no wonder you find yourself in your current difficult predicament. What goes around, comes around Rutherford. I got a real gut feel you don’t personally know bad yet, but you soon will.


  19. lowerer/lower


  20. dumb/dumberer


  21. Well, I finally figured out the difference between Chen and myself.

    I don’t hate any of our presidents. I really believe that they all have had the best interest of our country at heart.

    Chen has a hatred for president Bush that borders on a pathology. It’s a shame really. Let it go, Chen. Free your mind before it’s too late.


  22. Oh, c’mon now Sage. You’ve had an issue with my anti-Bush rhetoric since you discovered The Chamber, so this “finally figured out” stuff sounds pretty disingenuous. We’ve been there, done that (a year and a half ago, actually).

    I wasn’t going to apologize for it then, and I’m not going to apologize for it now. Take it or leave it.

    I’ve said here and elsewhere many times (beginning with some of the very first threads here), that I honestly didn’t view Bush negatively until the Iraq thing. Can I say, at this point, that I hate him? No. What you witness here is the expression (a free flow of thought, if you will) of the frustration borne out of the realization that our country validated this embarrassment with his re-election. I have to say something, and The Chamber provides a platform for me to exploit that need.

    I suspect that, in many ways, I am like you. In fact, I didn’t really even care about politics until all this went down. But I’m not going to sit here and unconditionally support the actions of someone, no matter who he is. And I’m certainly not going to restrain myself from speaking my mind when it comes to those actions, or those who are insistent on defending and redefining them. Does that mean I have some sort of mental disorder? Please. It’s not like I’m sitting out there on the fringe here. We’re talking about possibly the least popular president in US history. Someone so unpopular that the jockeying effort to become his successor began well before I even set up this blog almost 2 years ago.


  23. A lot of blood has been shed, Tex, and so we should be grateful to Bush?

    None of it was his, so that doesn’t follow, logically.

    The question is, did shedding that blood make us any safer? Considering that the intelligence sources are saying that AQ is using Iraq as a recruiting tool, and its numbers are stronger now than they were in 2003, one can certainly make a case that Pres. Bush has shed a lot of American blood and made us less safe in doing so.

    I’m not sure he deserves thanks for that.

    Feel free to swear at me now and pretend that that’s a well-thought-out argument.


  24. “Feel free to swear at me now and pretend that that’s a well-thought-out argument.”

    Hey wickle, here’s my pickle. Don’t worry it’ll just tickle, so don’t be fickle and give it a lickel and in return I will flip you a nickel.

    …hard to believe i’m 35 yrs old.


  25. i actually would have deleted that myself if we had the option, chen.


  26. i demand an upgrade to this board.


  27. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/12/04/one_more_question.html

    So that’s the guy who wrote all those cheeky Obama speeches?

    Remember how concerned everyone was here about those people yelling nasty things at Palin/McCain events?

    Should we now make sweeping generalizations about Democrats too?


  28. Well, hate to distract,
    but I’d add that “being safe” includes a hell of alot more than just whether or not AQ has attacked our soils again.

    For example,
    Am I safer from a natural disaster, say, like a Hurricane? Hell No.

    Am I safer in my job? Hell No.

    Am I safer from a violent crime? Nope, those have gone up to.

    Am I safer from toxic additives to drinking water or food? Nope, those have had the crap deregulated out of them.

    am I safer from say, crane or bridge collapses? Nope our infrastructure has gone to hell to.

    And on top of all that, I may be able to give him a little credit had he been able to actually “put the terrorists on the run” a little bit. But he hasn’t because other foreign policy choices have acted as huge recruitment posters for desperate young Muslims looking to strike out against anyone for their conditions.

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,642825,00.html


  29. Come on guys get happy!!! Chen, wheres your falling snow, its almost Christmas. Maybe if you added the falling snow, then people would feel joyful and lighten up.


  30. Wickle,

    Feel free to swear at me now and pretend that that’s a well-thought-out argument.

    Why? I’ve come to expect your sanctimony as you hide behind the neo-pagan skirts here at the Chamber, parading yourself as the biblical intellect and level-headed priest of WordPress, while still parroting virtually every lib meme worthy of Rutherford and General Chen. You define it as your personal profound wisdom. I define that as twisted, weak and confused.

    Like I’ve said, we’re each entitled to our own opinions. If you’re not wise enough to recognize that if AQ really used the war as a recruiting tool as you attest, brought their killers to Iraq, and then proceeded to get themselves slaughtered while doing so, George Bush is the smartest man on earth, and the Iraqi war is the greatest military strategy conducted since Israel’s six day stomping of attacking Arab countries. We ought to be giving the President a parade for his brilliance, if true.

    But I think it is worth remembering the President’s first mission was to protect the American public (which he has) and kill the enemy (which he has done), and he did it on foreign soil. The fact that a butcher named Saddam Hussein, who thumbed his nose at 18 U.N. resolutions for 12 years, is no longer around is not even a blip on your radar; the fact 27MM people who have never known freedom and lived under tyranny, now have a chance at a life; the fact there is a remote chance we really could have some semblance of a representative democracy in the ME outside of Israel; the fact that we now have military bases with the native’s permission right next door to the border of two of the most vicious countries on the planet, if the need arises; the fact that military recruitment is up, and that was before the economy tanked, so there are still many good people who believe in the cause; the fact history is far from being written; the facts of the ratification of military and strategic cooperation agreements between Iraq and the United States. Somehow, all of this apparently escapes you Wickle. Here, read this and review – it would do you some good to get current:

    http://townhall.com/Columnists/CharlesKrauthammer/2008/12/05/iraq_under_the_radar

    I don’t know where you get your “intelligent reports” because everything I read says Al-Queda is on the run. Of course, evil still exists and terrorists will always be with us as long as radical Islam abounds, and if they weren’t, somebody else evil would fill the void as you’ve been taught.

    I admit, I still admire George Bush. I see a man, unlike his predecessor, who took a calculated risk to face the enemy, take them on at a huge personal cost, probably at a cost of shorting his own life, under constant barrage of criticism from arm chair quarterbacks like you. You will side with his detractors as sure as the sun rises Wickle.

    Though we both profess to be Christians, one of us is right, and one of us is wrong. You apparently think Bill Clinton and Barack Obama better represent the things America should stand for, and you’ll throw in your previous support of Mike Huckabee to mask the stench of your stances, so not to be reflected too harshly against your faith. I frankly think George Bush, for all his foibles, better represents me and mine. You and I fall on different sides of just about every issue, unborn children notwithstanding.

    But I do find it ironic that a proponent of life as you like to call yourself, the fact you will continually side here on this board with this crowd who have little problem with women slaughtering unborn children, and in fact will call it a constitutional right, that somehow you feel the need to French kiss.

    No big deal, as I have stated for the record that I think you are milquetoast, and your science so weak I cringe when you attempt to defend our faith with your knowledge. Personally, I wish you would stop that as it makes my life more difficult in the debate by first having to cover for the ignorance of science. There is no personal animosity on my behalf toward you, but obviously there isn’t a great deal of mutual respect either.

    Now, feel free to keep the peace at your WordPress altar, of if you feel the need, to preach some more of your platitudes.


  31. Sour grapes, Chen.

    Your hatred for Bush is pathological, plain and simple. You’re just having a hard time wrapping your mind around that fact, so you bathe yourself in the comfort of knowing that there are (a few) other people who hold the same pathological beliefs. You’ve drank too much of the Koolaid and it’s affected central neurological center. So much so that you can’t even see it.

    Please Chen, for the sake of your own sanity….let it go!


  32. And get an edit function for this site, Chen. And a preview!

    And some smiley’s would help.

    I mean….damn….it’s almost 2009!
    You are living in a time warp, Chen. (insert smiley will rolling eyes).


  33. Talking about sanity and delusions ,i would never have thought Chen was, but thank you for pointing that out DesertSage.I clearly need to be informed by your rational point of view.


  34. Fuck you Rutherford. I swear, you are lowerer than whale shit and completely classless. I expect the juvenile threads like this from Chen because he gets his kicks from being offensive and its all he’s got.

    Is there anyone who doesnt just LOVE the irony?


  35. Bare it,

    Do you add anything to the conversation, or just cut and paste someone else’s dialogue, then add your own meaningless quip without grammar? Do you serve any legitimate purpose, besides provide a testimonial of how to post without punctuating?


  36. I didn’t actually read all the comments here, just the first and last few, so I am sorry if I repeated anyone.

    First, 9/11 wasn’t Bush’s fault, it was Clinton’s (if you really want to blame someone). Clinton had several chances to assassinate Osama Bin Laden, but didn’t. I doubt that Laden’s assassination would have eliminated any terrorist attacks on U.S. soil, but it might have prevented 9/11.

    Second, the motives and objectives of Al Qaeda (which is on the run in Iraq) can be found by anyone who really looks. The problem is that they are racist and religionist (new word created by me to fill in that gap). The motives of Al Qaeda are to put the whole world under a global goverment of Islam. Their motives come from the Quran. That’s the short version.

    “The attacks supposedly (perhaps because of their magnitude) marked the beginning of some onslaught, and we were expecting to be faced with wave after wave of terrorist plots and bombings.”

    They did, but not one that the ordinary american will catch. We have no idea how many plots the FBI and CIA have stopped or are currently following. Several terrorist attacks of lesser devastation have been carried through throughout the world. And then we have the India terrorist attacks of late. The fact is, we have prevented a lot of them by attacking Iraq and Afgahnistan, not because the governments were a monstrous threat, but because that is where all the Muslim fundamentalists are journeying to preform their Jihad.

    You ask when were safer,during Clinton’s term or Bush’s? We were probably safer during Clinton’s term. But we were also safer during Jackson’s term than during Madison’s because Madison was fighting the War of 1812. (That was the first one that came to mind). The thing is, Clinton didn’t do much to preserve the peace and prosperity, It wasn’t Van Buren’s fault that the depression occurred after Jackson killed the national bank, but he got pinned with it. That is what you are doing.


  37. Yea, hmmmm. Not sure what barry’s story is.


  38. solar1-

    First, 9/11 wasn’t Bush’s fault, it was Clinton’s (if you really want to blame someone). Clinton had several chances to assassinate Osama Bin Laden, but didn’t. I doubt that Laden’s assassination would have eliminated any terrorist attacks on U.S. soil, but it might have prevented 9/11

    And I suppose if we follow that, it’d be Bush’s fault if we were to be attacked next year, because of Tora Bora? And while Clinton might have missed, did Bush even try?

    Tex-

    But I think it is worth remembering the President’s first mission was to protect the American public (which he has)

    I thought the oath was to protect and defend the constitution. He’s viewed it as something that was in the way.

    and kill the enemy (which he has done), and he did it on foreign soil.

    If you’re referring to Iraq, do you mean the insurgents and foreign militants that took up arms as a result of our invasion? There is no evidence that bin Laden and Zawahiri are dead, last I checked.

    The fact that a butcher named Saddam Hussein, who thumbed his nose at 18 U.N. resolutions for 12 years, is no longer around is not even a blip on your radar; the fact 27MM people who have never known freedom and lived under tyranny, now have a chance at a life; the fact there is a remote chance we really could have some semblance of a representative democracy in the ME outside of Israel; the fact that we now have military bases with the native’s permission right next door to the border of two of the most vicious countries on the planet, if the need arises; the fact that military recruitment is up, and that was before the economy tanked, so there are still many good people who believe in the cause; the fact history is far from being written; the facts of the ratification of military and strategic cooperation agreements between Iraq and the United States. Somehow, all of this apparently escapes you Wickle.

    Ahh…the old “ends justify the means” angle. I’ve seen this before…

    Ask yourself something, Tex. If Bush would have presented all that to the American people back in ’03, that instead of the WMD’s, connections to al Qaeda and tales of mushroom clouds, we were going to expend tens of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars for humanitarian and tactical geopolitical reasons in the deserts of Mesopotamia, do you think we would have gone along with it?


  39. Do you add anything to the conversation, or just cut and paste someone else’s dialogue, then add your own meaningless quip without grammar? Do you serve any legitimate purpose, besides provide a testimonial of how to post without punctuating?

    yes.


  40. The story is whatever one wants it to be,i may just being a stranger passing by ,commenting on your hair.


  41. I think Barry has contributed better in the forum then I have today…


  42. I suppose that one of the complications of having a blog with global reach is that it also reaches the lounges of halfway houses.


  43. Yeah, we’ll blame everything on Clinton.

    Then we’ll blame everything on Bush.

    And whoever get’s elected in 2012 or 2016…then we’ll blame everything on Obama. And on and on….

    This is a pathology…I was hoping you were above this kind of thing, Chen? (insert smiley banging his head against the wall)


  44. Sage-

    That’s the fourth time you’ve diagonosed me with some sort of “pathology”. What gives? The rest of us (save barry) are having a rational conversation on whether the pundit-embraced talking point “he kept us safe” has any merit with regard to Bush, at a time when many are looking back upon the last 8 years of his presidency. Why do you insist on punting the proverbial ball with this accusation that I suffer from some sort of mental disorder because I brought it up and laid out my own argument? Why whould that disappoint you?

    Was it the {{{{echo}}}} thing? I thought that was kinda clever.


  45. First, Tex, do you READ before you rant? Obviously not. What I said was that I see no conclusive evidence that Bush did or didn’t keep us safe. As Chen said, it’s kinda hard to prove. But let me see if I follow your logic:

    Tex blindly supports his President
    Ergo Tex is a patriot
    Ergo Tex deserves the fruits of American society
    Rutherford criticizes his President
    Ergo Rutherford is a traitor
    Ergo Rutherford deserves poverty in life and the depths of hell in death.

    Did I get that right?

    DesertSage really hit the nail on the head. The problem with the meme (God I hate that word) that Chen discusses here is that Bush is neither our savior nor our solely responsible total failure. We have this wonderful tendency to put the entire workings of the federal government on the shoulders of one man and it is absurd. You can more rightly say that Clinton was “guilty” of getting an extramarital blowjob while on duty than you can say he was responsible for 9/11. In fact, I amend the comment that sent Tex off the deep end. The intelligence memo that read “Bin Laden to attack United States” did not presage a failure by Bush. It presaged a failure by our government.

    Bush is getting the rap for the failure of our very complicated government. The truth is that if Bush appeared to be an inquisitive intelligent analyst of events and THEN 9/11 happened, we might have a different attitude toward him. It is the poor man’s simple minded nature, the fact that he dislikes debate and alternative arguments that makes him look culpable for our country’s current woes.

    Again, Tex if you bothered to read what I wrote, you’d understand that I find Bush’s current predicament kind of sad. He was a man in way over his head and the government he was put in charge of let him … and us … down.


  46. By the way, the man who is currently battling it out for least popular President with Bush, namely James Buchanan, was a similarly flawed individual. When you are chosen to lead a country on the verge of falling apart, you must be a man of incredible attributes to step up to that challenge. In 1856 the odds were 100 to 1 against electing a President who could keep our nation together. History strongly rebukes Buchanan because he was no Lincoln. But how many men before or since were of Lincoln’s caliber? I think we expect too much from our Presidents, and quite frankly, should probably be relieved when they don’t screw things up too badly.


  47. Rutherford,

    My reading comprehension is fine. I don’t blindly support Bush. There’s several things he has done I don’t agree with, including his spending, his poor judgment of Putin, and his mismanagement of the Iraqi War before discovering Petraeus.

    But when I consider this statement,

    What I said was that I see no conclusive evidence that Bush did or didn’t keep us safe.

    I find it so ludicrous, it doesn’t even rate a response. We will soon see if Obama can defend us. If he happens to fail, perhaps it will be right in the middle of your neighborhood, so that then you’ll have all the conclusive evidence you need.

    By the way, the man who is currently battling it out for least popular President with Bush, namely James Buchanan, was a similarly flawed individual.

    Along with Bush, the lowest rated President upon leaving office of the 20th century was Harry Truman – a man now looked fondly upon by most, including by me. And considering these “ratings” are made by your type, is it any surprise? Of course, nobody ever mentions somebody like LBJ, who not only got a lot more people killed “with proven lies”, but managed to lose a war while doing so. Isn’t it amazing LBJ can rate so high in your polling? And who can forget the immortal Jimmah Carter, who couldn’t even get prisoners out of jail and get the country out of its “malaise”. I know he’s been real popular of late too – especially the blood libel with Palestine.

    If all Dimocratic Presidents are so popular as you suggest and all Republicans “simple” and unpopular, why is it the biggest victories of current Pres. fame are always a Republican over a Dimocrat? Want to consider say 1972, 1984 or 1988 election results against THE PROPHET’s overwhelming victory, or Clinton’s, who never managed 50% of the popular vote?

    Tex blindly supports his President
    Ergo Tex is a patriot
    Ergo Tex deserves the fruits of American society
    Rutherford criticizes his President
    Ergo Rutherford is a traitor
    Ergo Rutherford deserves poverty in life and the depths of hell in death

    Rutherford blindly supports any amoral Dimocrat
    Hence, Rutherford thinks this makes him wise
    Tex mocks Rutherford and his Pres. Elect
    Ergo Rutherford is already on verge of poverty according to pasts posts, doesn’t understand that hell is real and he will be there, even if Rutherford chooses to believe hell or not.

    It is the poor man’s simple minded nature, the fact that he dislikes debate and alternative arguments that makes him look culpable for our country’s current woes.

    Yet somehow this “simple man” managed to get a far more prestigious degree from your university than you did. If Bush simple, what does that make you? An abject failure?

    P.S. – Bush has been more than happy to release all of his records, including academic. Why hasn’t the brilliant Barack been able to do the same? Wouldn’t he want to brag on his credentials if they were as good as you suggest of this “brilliant” man. Of course, we found out after the fact, that Bush was a better student than both Gore and Kerry, who until then had been considered genius.

    Chen,

    Honestly. I have never witnessed somebody so badly in denial. I’ll make you a promise General. If I become a complete and utter failure in virtually every regard these next four years, I will attempt to rise above and not blame your hero for my own shortcomings.

    [Good grief. After reading all that, I had to re-read what R posted, just to make sure I haven’t been drinking. (Have you?) Anyway, I think the goal post moves beat out the straw men on this one. – CZ]


  48. Sage-

    That’s the fourth time you’ve diagonosed me with some sort of “pathology”. What gives?

    You’re right, sorry for attempting to diagnose your psychosis, whether actual or perceived.

    Maybe I’m just tired of politics. We as a nation have been through a really tough 8 years. Starting with 9/11 and ending with a financial meltdown and recession. Nobody is happy. And if we keep looking for scapegoats for the troubles we have people are going to continue to be unhappy.

    Like it or not, Bus was elected to be our president. The first time could be arguable to an extent…but four years later there was no question that he was re-elected. He won the same percentage as the guy who just won this last election.
    Now….can we just let it go and try and think of ways to come together and move our country forward? This constant harping about whether Bush knew this or should have done that, or all these what ifs? It’s doing nothing but stirring up resentment.

    52% of the people voted for the man in 2004….are you going to keep harping about how stupid they were? Because that’s what you’re doing by continuously bashing Bush…you’re inadvertently telling 52% of the population that they’re dumber then dirt. Knock it off already!
    I’m telling you if this keeps up, then as soon as Obama screws something up (and you know he will) then the 48% who didn’t vote for him will start bashing him….and the whole cycle will start all over again.

    I don’t want our presidents bashed…whether it’s Clinton, Bush or Obama! I want our presidents to do all they can to make our country a better, more perfect nation.

    So for the last time Chen, knock it off. Give Mr. Bush a gold watch, say thank you…and let him go on his merry way. We have much bigger issues to deal with (insert smiley here).


  49. I thought the oath was to protect and defend the constitution.

    I forgot something for our resident genius blog owner. Yes Chen, I agree completely the President’s priority is to defend the Constitution.

    So who do you think is the Constitution? I’ll give you a hint. The first words are We the People of the United States

    If you can prove to me that George Bush has not done so, or you can prove Bush has viewed the Constitution as something that was in the way, why have you not pushed for his arrest?

    It is within your right as citizen.


  50. And to top it off, you don’t even have smiley’s on this blog. If you want to hit the big time, you need smiley’s.

    And a preview.
    And an edit function.
    And maybe a way to embed pictures into the comments.

    just sayin’


  51. And to top it off, you don’t even have smiley’s on this blog. If you want to hit the big time, you need smiley’s.

    🙄


  52. 🙂
    😀
    😦
    😮
    😯
    😕
    8)
    😡
    😛
    😐
    😉
    😆
    😳
    😥
    👿
    😈
    🙄


    💡

    :mrgreen:


  53. Not to get serious here, but during my volunteer stint on the wordpress forums, I know that it is impossible to be able to embed pictures into the comments, also edit functions and the preview options are also impossible for commentors to use…just sayin’ 😀

    btw Im curious what Chen suggests that we would have done after september 11? Im seriously asking, because I never thought of it as realistic for the US to do nothing, I mean we aren’t pacifists. Though I do agree with the notion that just because we haven’t had a terrorist attack doesn’t mean we are safe. I would actually argue that America has been safe yet other countries aren’t safe. But, the thats obviously my opinion, I have a somewhat mix feelings about this whole “Bush kept us safe” thing.


  54. chen, was that necessary and isn’t it quite sad that someone would actually know how to insert all the different types of smilies. Um…with that said, how do you do the smile that blushes?


  55. 😆


  56. 🙄


  57. Ahhh..the eye roll thingy doesn’t work. 😦


  58. sensico-

    I’ve always supported the Afghanistan mission. I also would have implimented the 9/11 recommendations and held the intelligence community accountable for the failure.


  59. thats cause you did it wrong instead of using rolleyes, just use the word roll 🙄


  60. Re: Smilies

    It’s in the wordpress FAQ:

    List of smilies

    they all work in the comments section, except :surprise: for some reason.

    Bookmark the page if you want.


  61. Why don’t you just embed the smiley’s next to the comment box to make it easy on everyone?

    😐


  62. The Chamber is unfortunately constrained to whatever features wordpress provides, sorry.

    I think the netizens that use wordpress.com have been asking for comment buttons like quote, link, preview, etc. for some time, but to no avail. From time to time, the WP folks issue little upgrades like the blavatars and such, but so far the commenting thing remains in the stone age.

    But I do take advantage of most of the features that are there, some quite creatively (like Tex’s emblem he earned above).


  63. Ahh…and bookmark I shall, thanks. To be honest my smiley question was more urgent then my 9/11 question LOL priorities are just different these days. I really have little else to say, especially since I agree with your above answer to my question. But by time you hold the intelligence community accountable, we would have already been in Iraq and I doubt we would have ended the Iraq war any faster. Im sure with this new administration, there will be more thinking ahead about the consequences of our actions before just acting without thinking.


  64. Actually wordpress is going to add intense debate. Its for the comments section so that people can respond to others comments directly. Kind forum style of commenting, I think its going to be very exciting. Especially on this blog. Though, from what I have seen on other sites with intense debate, there will be no smiley box, which is good because thats tacky.


  65. Tex i dont think chen is in a position to push for G.W`s arrest if he would want to, think of all the crazies who would keep harrassing him.he wouldnt have the possibility to make any moderate points anymore.

    Me on the other hand,being a AC troll could do that and maybe i will,after all he is arguably a war criminal, and when i get bored with the conversation i could just leave and harrass some other nuts.

    But maybe ill stick around for a while without making any such arguments, there seems to be interesting stuff here i like to learn about.


  66. I am seriously stressed out. Barely making it, folks. If only my grand parents were still alive. They would have talked me into some financial restraint from the years 2000 to 2006. Even my Dad’s advice pushed me towards buying the biggest house humanly possible.

    My wife’s student loans. Credit card debt (although I tossed those a year and a half ago). Now, a possible 15,000 grand just to have a shot at having a son or daughter. That’s for one cycle. My house has lost 60% of its value. My wife has lost 50% of her salary.

    Deep down inside, I knew it. I knew the credit that was being tossed around like gangbusters was insane. And I still let the devil talk me into it. My neighbors are just walking away. My brother is house hunting right now and he said almost 7 out of 10 foreclosures on the market have had the copper looted.

    Every day I get up in the morning I have a conversation with myself. Should I walk? No. Can’t walk. I called Country Wide to see if I could get a little relief and they said I didn’t qualify for any of the new programs because I’m not delinquent.

    Then there’s the “what ifs”. What if I get laid off? Sometimes I think utter failure would be the best thing that could happen. My buddies who have walked away or went bankrupt are so happy now. They say it was the best thing they ever did.

    Am I the only person left in this country that sees failure as a bad thing??????

    I wish I could blame someone. Sure, Barney Frank is an easy target for Rabbit. I loath him.

    But this is all my doing. And I literally can’t sleep anymore because of it.


  67. 15 grand


  68. Am I the only person left in this country that sees failure as a bad thing??????

    Nope, I’m with ya.

    I’ve been wondering lately what my house be worth at this point, and if I’m upside down and how deep. I guess maybe I don’t want to know. I know I’m sitting here in not that bad a shape because I still have a job (even if its not making me rich), and somehow I’m making the ends meet (even if it is just barely). If I start slipping, I guess I’ll make some more cuts and/or try to get a second job (or a different job). I’ll try to keep the Chamber up, but if I feel I can’t afford the $150/mo for this outrageous cable bill, well then that would be a sacrifice I’d make as it doesn’t fall into the necessity category. But I refuse to be that guy you’re describing.

    Take care rabbit, and good luck.


  69. General Chen,

    Honestly. I have never witnessed somebody so badly in denial. I’ll make you a promise General. If I become a complete and utter failure in virtually every regard these next four years, I will attempt to rise above and not blame your hero for my own shortcomings.

    Give me another…


  70. Rabbit,

    I see we’ve got snow on the board. Looks to me like the General and WordPress would do better to grant a little ray of sunshine in the background.

    So you can’t get refinancing because you’re honest? Well that is great, isn’t it? Like I’ve said so many times on this board before. When did America become stupid? Instead of punishing those that walk, we punish the guy who follows the rules.

    Sounds like good “progressive” policy. They got rid of shame (unless you’re a Christian – then you should be ashamed) and brought in sugar daddy gov’t. Kind of welfare for the least deserving.

    Buddy, I am sorry. You’re the one guy on this board I’ve ‘met’ that deserves some good will, if for no other reason you’ve got a wonderful sense of humor. I’d help if I knew how, but since I don’t know the specifics about your wife’s age or her dilemma (maybe your dilemma), I can’t even make recommendations.

    If you ever want to take it off the board, I do have access to the best medical information available, free of charge, I would be happy to get for you and send to you. But I’ll need to know the facts.


  71. The Emblem was delivered for your response to rutherford, Tex.

    Anyway, I’m guessing that the Rush’s and the rest of the righty pundits were planning on giving Bush kudos for the economy on his way out. I distinctly remember day after day of Hannity reminding us that the Bush policies were working. In fact, I think they’re still trying make the argument, by blaming people like the aforementioned Barney Frank for the latest developments, but I’m not sure its really sinking in. So, “he kept us safe” is what’s left. Well, that, and I’ve heard variations of Tex’s line that Iraq turned out reveal some grand vision of Bush’s, and years from now we’ll discover that it was genius with all the peace and prosperity in the Middle East.

    Speaking of that Tex, you never responded to my other question above. Do you think that we would have gone along with it?


  72. Chen,

    This WordPress thing? How does it work, and how much do you pay? Is the $150 for access, use, or what?

    Let me know…


  73. Chen,

    Do I think we would have gone along with attacking Iraq? Well, the lib mantra all along has been we went because of an imminent threat from WMD. And I agree with about 50% of that – no doubt it was a major impetus in removing Saddam and the final bill of sale at the UN.

    Where I get off the lib gravy train of criticism is this. The intelligence used by Bush to remove Saddam was the same intelligence that Bill Clinton, John Kerry, Vladimir Putin, the Sauds, Israeli intelligence, military experts, foreign policy experts from both Dimocrat and Republican regimes, a Dimocratic Congress, John Howard, Tony Blair, and NATO all agreed to was accurate and correct. I still personally believe chemical weapons were moved to Syria in our delay to attack and am willing to bet that will be shown true in the near future. It may already have. Saddam had 550 tons of yellow cake uranium, a precursor to U-235 which we captured and moved to Canada. Saddam was not only harboring terrorists, but paying them to kill Jewish citizens in Israel. That is undisputed. He was a thug that need to go.

    Now, would I have chosen Iraq if I was sure Saddam no threat to anyone but neighboring countries? Yes; one of those neighboring countries is Israel who Saddam had attacked without provocation. And because of my convictions which you wouldn’t understand, I would have removed Saddam and gone even further in removing al-Assad and Hezballah.

    Has the war been mismanaged? Yes. Has the war been won? Not completely and still unsure. Has Al-Queda been damaged to any large degree? Absolutely, but Al-Queda but one of many terrorist groups. Do Dimocrats and Chen in particular have unrealistic expectations of how to conduct a war and are duplicitous in their judgment? Most definitely.

    Are you safer on account of Iraq? Only time will tell. But I can guarantee you sitting around doing nothing but firing cruise missiles from thousands of miles away doesn’t work, as indicated by the 90s policy of Bill Clinton and 9/11.


  74. Sorry, but if your paying $150 for cable then your ass should be broke. We have to think about personal responsibility here. My family didn’t get a lot of money from paying $150 for freakin’ cable. Also, people kill me with blaming the government for their financial failures. Thats why half the country don’t support bailing out people who bought bad mortgages. People have to learn to invest and save their money. Right now I work for my father twice a week and get paid only $80 for 4 hours, and at times I don’t even bother to work so I get paid nothing. I am able to pay my $50 phone bill, my $40 internet bill and chip in $70 on rent and spend nearly $100 a wk on food, and you know why, its because I know how to manage my freakin’ money. Now Im sure those who have full time jobs, can do a lot more with their money, but its not the governments fault is people who didn’t understand business/finance 101.
    Sorry for the rant and any possible spelling errors, and Im happy you considered the falling snow feature like I suggested earlier. It really brightens up the place and makes one feel joyful.


  75. Rutherford is a classic provacateur, who when punched back, resorts to whining and trying to play the mild mannered victim. He is a vicious POS and coward who never ventures out of his leftist comfort zone, and deserves to be mocked continually in my estimation.

    Sorry I have to do it on your board and thank you for allowing me the privilege of doing so. As I’ve said in the past, for all of our disagreements Chen, and for all of your decisions about right and wrong in which we disagree, I do give you this:

    You’re the one lib (maybe Gordon too) I’ve met on the internet that is at least brave enough to let nasty comments sent in return stand on their own merit, instead of the typical lefty who likes to censor like that religious bigot Revolting Puke. In that regard, I hold you in far higher regard than I do any other “progressive” blogger, and many conservative ones too.

    And that is a fact.


  76. Testing…

    😡
    🙄
    😦
    👿
    😈

    I thought I had used these in the past and some didn’t work.


  77. Tex-

    This WordPress thing? How does it work, and how much do you pay? Is the $150 for access, use, or what?

    The $150 is for Comcast, ’cause I have a lot of the extras (HDTV box, HBO, high speed internet, etc.). Yea, I know its a ripoff and I could probably chuck the HBO at this point, but that’s not unusual for a cable bill around here.

    WordPress.com is completely free and anyone can sign up, but you can pay for certain premuim features if you wish. I go the free route, so I don’t have a lot of reason to complain. Sometimes though I wonder because they do upgrade the service quite often, but its usually silly stuff like the blavatars and now the snow, and not logical stuff like upgrading the commenting system.

    Without the Comcast, I can’t access the internet from home, so that’s what I meant by keeping the Chamber up.


  78. Tex,Chen,

    WARNING: VERY LONG WINDED RANT

    Thanks for the support. But trust me, if you could do something for me, you’d want to kill me after an expose on how I lived life came out. In 2003, the wife and I went on 3,000 dollar plus cruise for our anniversary. WTF? I could have had a great time reading a history book and sipping a Bell’s Kalamazoo Stout right here off the coast of Lake Michigan! Everyone was going on these kick ass honeymoons at the time. So, we figured we were entitled too. The funny thing is, the cruise itself disgusted me. Ginormous pigs and lumbering loud breathers with locked knees stuffing themselves with multiple 10,000 calorie meals. And you couldn’t get away form them! I’ll never forget the waste on that ship. I’m surprised the floating mall didn’t have a vomatorium.

    This is how we chose to start off as a family? Spend thousands of dollars gorging ourselves? Unbelievable! One day books upon books will be written about the excess of this decade. How two generations removed from the best emerged the worst. And our grandchildren will be picking up the tab! Nobody was saying it was wrong. Not my family. Not the Democrats. Not the GOP.

    Tex is right, only the Bible could have helped Rabbit. But, who needs the Bible when you can go eat bad pasta at the fricking Olive Garden on a Discover Card, pissing away 40 bucks a time while whistling like a dumb ass.

    It gets worse. In ’05 we went to Ireland for a week. Now, we got a good deal. But since when do middle class newlyweds from Wayne County go on rendezvous overseas????

    Help the Rabbit out? For dining with the devil? What in God’s name made me think I was some sort of aristocrat? I should go look back at some photo albums. I wonder if I’d find pictures of me with a powdered face, wig and strategically placed artificial birthmark while I fanned my haughty ass in a puffy white shirt.

    The Rabbit grew up in a tiny ranch with 5 brothers, two parents and a grandmother. All on a modest single income. One car. No cable. No air conditioning. We never even pondered these modern “needs” as realistic options! Instead we went outside. Our blood actually flowed. We played baseball. We played basketball. We got into fisticuffs.

    Let the Rabbit deal with it, even if you hear him sob. A life in purgatory beats an eternity in hell.


  79. “Right now I work for my father twice a week and get paid only $80 for 4 hours, and at times I don’t even bother to work so I get paid nothing. I am able to pay my $50 phone bill, my $40 internet bill and chip in $70 on rent and spend nearly $100 a wk on food, and you know why, its because I know how to manage my freakin’ money. Now Im sure those who have full time jobs, can do a lot more with their money, but its not the governments fault is people who didn’t understand business/finance 101.”-sensico

    LOL. dude, I agree 100% with what your saying, but, uh, are you bragging about living with your folks? Am I misunderstanding you? You pitch in 70 dollars rent and work two days a week????? Wow, what will they ever do if you move out. Come on man, you got go be a big boy before you bust big boy balls. Again, if I’m misunderstanding you, my apologies. But, I have to admit, your post made me seriously laugh out loud and I needed that!


  80. Im actually a girl in college. If your trying to belittle me because you think Im bragging, then I’ll continue to shove it in your face that when I do move out, I will always have a job…how about you 🙄

    Though I am looking for innovative ways to make money, right now Im thinking about doing freelance reporting on the scientific field, or possibly, have some fun teaching basic scientific processes with youtube videos, though I might not get paid for it, it will still be fun and possibly boost my resume.

    Anyways, you should be thinking about some ways to make money that are recession proof. Anyways, Im assuming your from Michigan, I am too. Must suck that you wasted money on a cruise, you could have just went up north to see the beautiful scenery. When you try to follow the pack you will never succeed.


  81. Thank you for your advice. After a 4 paragraph rant ripping on myself, not sure it was needed. But, can’t say I disagree with you.

    I wasn’t trying belittle you at all. But, I’ll stick to my guns. You really are still living the life of a child. And I mean that with no disrespect. To come on here and use yourself as an example of frugality while getting a free ride from Mommy and Daddy is laughable. Hell, you don’t even work!! In a way, it shows an unbelievable lack of gratitude for what your family is doing for you. Do you pay for college? I noticed that wasn’t in your break down. I paid for my wife’s college. You know how? By a second job as a roofer and a G.I. bill. And we still owe 30,000 grand! I bet you don’t even know the very existence of bills being paid on your behalf. The funny thing is you will graduate in a year or so, enter the real world and begin living within an artificial matrix of your own self-made greatness. Your bootstrap is a teet.


  82. “If your trying to belittle me because you think I’m bragging, then I’ll continue to shove it in your face that when I do move out, I will always have a job…how about you”-sensico

    At first I thought that was the most ignorant thing somebody could ever say. Not only is there no logic, other then a kind of mean spirited attack, it shows an amazing lack of how life works. My friend’s Dad was a doctor. He came down with Lou Gerhig’s disease and died in a trailer park.

    Yeah, I really was about to throw the Rabbit gloves off until I read your comeback with the voice of girl who is a few years removed from high school living with her parents. My rage lifted away and was replaced by a loving smirk.


  83. Rabbit, you’re not alone.

    My wife and I went on a cruise for our honeymoon back in the late 80s, and like you, I was completely unimpressed as porky people porked out more. There was something completely unbecoming and decadent about the sordid affair, and it was then I learned 3rd world countries are a POS, pretty beaches the exception. Disney World was fun, though. I’ve been back a few times since with the kids, but never as fun with just me and the Mrs. It was winter and we had almost complete freedom without crowds to do anything we wanted.

    Add to the fact, my beautiful bride hadn’t anymore got out of port and she started puking, it made for a really rancid honeymoon. On the last day, Tex got food poisoning and spent the flight home hanging over a nasty Lav. I spent my third night or marriage playing slots while my wife moaned on the bed, and some hag took a liking to Tex trying to weasel money out of him while blowing smoke in his face and trying to sit on his lap (on a damn cruise ship you can’t even get away from mooches). She even gave me an invite. I declined.

    However, you and your wife didn’t ask for problems carrying a baby and I would like to help, if I can. While I obviously am not a doctor yet, I do have access to some of the best information in the world. Perhaps there is something I could provide in the mail that would save you the expense of getting 2nd opinion and increase the likelihood of success. At the very least, it might you’d be more educated about problem. Chen’s got my email, just as he has your’s. He’ll know how to get hold of me if you’re interested.

    Sensico, 😈

    with all due respect, you don’t march in as some college lackey preaching to adults about how to manage their lives. Rabbit has made it entirely on his own, without help. He doesn’t have a rich daddy to fall back on like you do and that makes an entire world of difference.

    And don’t think for a minute think that unless your daddy is employing you, a college degree guarantees success or a job even. I can attest far more than you can that a formal education is way overrated, and just about the time you think you’re bullet proof, life has a way of knocking you on your ass.


  84. Okay Chen, Bush didn’t keep us safe.

    In fact, he’s the worst POS scum who ever walked the face of the earth!

    There are you happy now 🙄


  85. Thank you Chen for the emoton info, or whatever those thingies with faces are called. That will make it more fun to leave piles of doo doo on the floor here.


  86. I greatly respect my parents, which is why I never got in trouble and received top honors in my class, which resulted in my getting a full ride to college. Anyways, I pay for my other expenses because when I was 10 years old I was reading books on how to invest your money. I guess that is just the consequence of making good decision early in life.
    Also, I was using myself, and the little money I make as an example that if Im able to pay off bills with that little amount of money, then people who make more should also. People were poorly managing their money before Bush was in office. My problem is with people like you who dont plan ahead. If you knew you had to pay for college, then why in the hell would you waste your money on a cruise, you could have just went to Disney World or something. That was so damn unnecessary, almost liked chen paying $150 for cable when you can just buy internet service and watch your favorite shows on the internet. Comcast tried to whoo me into their little cable/internet deal come, I almost told them to slap themselves. You have to be tough these days, when I first signed up with my internet company there was special wiring that had to be done, they told me it would cost $200 you know what I did, I simply told the company that I want to cancel the service, and they did the wiring for free. Maybe Chen could try to do the same with Comcast…I hope so cause I dont find it reasonable to complain about Bush’s economy when you can’t even manage your own money. Again sorry for any possible grammar issues.


  87. with all due respect, you don’t march in as some college lackey preaching to adults about how to manage their lives. Rabbit has made it entirely on his own, without help. He doesn’t have a rich daddy to fall back on like you do and that makes an entire world of difference.

    Theres adults saying the same damn thing. Theres plenty of people I know who came from nothing and earned enough money to live well off. You dont have to be born rich. Of course his path to success financially will be harder, but the same principles would apply.


  88. What problem do you have with me? You know, I am paying my bills. At the time my wife was making double the money. She actually had a great job before her degree in group insurance. After she got her degree, ironically, she lost her job. Thank God she got it, because it landed her a job outside of insurance (Although she went from 90,000 to 40,000.)

    Besides, I don’t ever have a “problem” with a person who acknowledges a mistake and willing to face the consequences. You can thank the St. Dunstan Church for that outlook.

    Look, were on the same side of this issue.

    The hubris of saying “I will never lose my job” is a sign of such immaturity it makes me cringe for you. I feel sorry for your sheltered life and would not trade places with you for one second.

    I suppose you’re going to school to be a doctor or something. Other then the medical field, I can’t really imagine a job that is so safe. What part of Michigan are you from? I’m guessing either the northern suburbs, Rochester? or the West Side of the state. If you lived in the Detroit area you would be aware of the thousands of hard working, non union, college grads who are collecting unemployment. Yes, some of them are even self-righteous geniuses who were into financial planning when they were ten years old.


  89. Hey! Good news to bring a ray of sunshine to the black cloud hanging over THE CHAMBER today. Tex found something about Pres. Elect Present that Tex can agree with:

    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081207/D94U22AO1.html

    Now, if Pres. Present can also throw in about 50 union stewards to go with that, that is change I can believe in.


  90. correction:The Rabbit grew up in a tiny ranch with 4 brothers, two parents and a grandmother. I counted myself has a brother.


  91. I wasn’t trying to say, “I will never lose my job” more like a…I will always have a place to go if I don’t find work. Look, I know what its like to lose a job. I had a job as an office assistant at a Veterinarian place, and apparently, I wasn’t “aggressive'” enough so I was fired. And, nope can never imagine myself within the medical field, I’ll just be doing research and teaching with in the marine biology field, which is surprisingly not job dry, Im assuming its because we need marine biologist now more then ever, with offshore drilling, global warming, over fishing and ecosystem destruction, plus new ventures are being started at sea. Actually I goto school in Detroit, but live in Macomb county. I am well aware of Michigan situation, but honestly my career goals and personal aspirations lead me to live in other states. With the economic crisis, it seems as though people may be slowly moving back to detroit, I assuming since it is possible to buy a house for $1. But, downtown they are still building lofts, and the new Westin Hotel seems to be booming when I pass by there everyday. The casinos are also still filled with the hopeless, btw if you goto MGM casino, play the Deal or No Deal games, I win $200 😀 though I only went there once, so I wouldn’t take my chances on the casino again. Well, maybe next time those self-righteous geniuses could put their skills to use, and think global not local.


  92. rabbit, you were lucky, you should have enjoyed your life on a ranch. Im stuck with no siblings and I love animals, your life would have my second dream life.


  93. Sensico,

    You tell us your on a free ride to college. I will assume for a minute a major university on a free ride. Since I am aware you were taking Org Chem this semester from your website, I will also assume you are exactly my oldest daughter’s age who just finished Org I this semester.

    Now I must brag on my baby for a minute to ask my question. My oldest daughter is a straight A student in high school, continues to be a straight A student in college, has plans for medical school, graduated salutatorian in a private high class of 260, got a 5 on every AP test she took in high school (all five of them), including physics, chemistry and calculus, and has excelled in every academic arena. She was also an all-state athlete and grabbed 1460 on the SAT (can’t remember the writing score). Blessed life this child has lived.

    Tex would love to attribute it to her outstanding and brilliant father, but her father knows better and would be lying thru his teeth.

    I also have a nephew that scored a 33 on his ACT. Now he has a nice scholarship that pays for his tuition, but that’s not the same thing as a free ride.

    I say all that to ask this. My daughter isn’t on a full-ride to college. Though she has some nice scholarships, her parents are still forking out a small fortune for her education.

    Would you tell the crowd here exactly what qualifies you for a full ride to college, because about the only full ride I’ve seen as of late to college is the one where someone carries or shoots a ball? That is, unless the daughter’s old man pays a huge endowment to the university, under the guise of academic scholarship.

    I would really be interested in what qualifies one for a free ride these days…


  94. Dammit…I’ve been pitiful lately at both proofreading and spelling.

    Your/you’re. I kind of like getting old, but the plasticity of my brain patterns is beginning to straight line into a vacuum.


  95. On a lighter note with humor, has Tex ever told “The Chamber” his story of making application to med school? 😈

    To enter med school, one has to write a personal letter, which I thought the most difficult part of the process. I penned some beautiful prose from my heart, bragging about,

    “I’ve been married to the same women for twenty years.” I am sure they were thoroughly impressed at the university about my polygamy. To this day, my dear momma ask me how my wives are doing.


  96. lol…sensico…I’m sorry for laughing again. Please know I am not being mean spirited.. But I didn’t mean a “ranch” with horses and chickens (although that would be awesome). A “ranch” is also a very well known kind of house without a second level. They were built in the 1960’s and are found all throughout the “factory” suburbs to the west of Detroit. If you’ve ever been to Redford, Garden City or Inkster you would know what I’m talking about. Small but well built…oh how much I’d like to be in one right now.

    After reading your posts, I am sorry for being so hard on you. You caught me on a bad day.

    I didn’t go to church today. Thing I like about church is that even if one just sits there, in total doubt about the whole thing, at least one can’t run one’s trap. The very act of going through the motions is a mentally healthy thing to do.


  97. Maybe I was just lucky, but all we had to do at my university to get a free ride, was be at the top of our class, and go through the interview process…I am very charming. I think its important for other schools to consider giving full rides to those who are not athletic. Anyways, Im actually taking Organic Chemistry 2, and Im taking it rather late so I doubt you can judge my age based on your daughters. Though I would like to play the game of guess my age, I like games 😀 You should drop by the wordpress forum and play the word association game. Im waiting for someone to see what they could come up with after I entered Angiosperm.


  98. “Now I must brag on my baby for a minute to ask my question. My oldest daughter is a straight A student in high school, continues to be a straight A student in college, has plans for medical school, graduated salutatorian in a private high class of 260, got a 5 on every AP test she took in high school (all five of them), including physics, chemistry and calculus, and has excelled in every academic arena. She was also an all-state athlete and grabbed 1460 on the SAT (can’t remember the writing score). Blessed life this child has lived.” -Tex

    Forget getting your email before the birth of my child, I’m contacting you after I have a child. Very well done, sir. Man, if I was you I would bragging non stop. Actually, your daughter deserves just a little bit of props herself….


  99. “Im waiting for someone to see what they could come up with after I entered Angiosperm.”-sensico

    I have no idea what your talking about, but can you send some Angiosperm in the mail…I’m willing to try anything….


  100. Aww…thats cute, when I would do good in school, my daddy would make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and cut them up into tiny triangles. Then he would play my favorite game called “teacher” So he’d act like a student and let me teach him and the teddy bears/students what I learned. I dont know how old your daughter is, but Im sure theres some variation of that game for teenagers. Its actually very fun.


  101. “I’ve been married to the same women for twenty years.” I am sure they were thoroughly impressed at the university about my polygamy. To this day, my dear momma ask me how my wives are doing.”

    LOL

    Do you think they actually read those things? I never understood the point of letters like that.

    I sometimes like to brag to my wife about how good she has it. I don’t cheat, don’t get into bar brawls or gamble the money away. She never thanks me for not doing these things.


  102. “I wasn’t trying to say, “I will never lose my job” more like a…I will always have a place to go if I don’t find work. Look, I know what its like to lose a job. I had a job as an office assistant at a Veterinarian place, and apparently, I wasn’t “aggressive’” enough so I was fired.”-senisco

    Holy crap you have cheered me up.


  103. angiosperm…when I first read, I thought blood vessel and sperm?

    Then it dawned me where I heard it before…botany.

    Rabbit,

    Do you think they actually read those things? I never understood the point of letters like that.

    Yep, they read them – at least for medical school because they use them for your interview you before they grill your old ass (at least mine).

    As far as the kid, thank you. I can’t tell you how proud I am of my kiddies, even if my youngest is a pain in the ass sometimes and has a tendency to have a wreck once in a while. Both are smart, pretty and they take after their mother. Don’t think some chump that spends his days screwing off on blog and dropped out of medical school is capable of raising kids like that…

    He ain’t – but it is better to be lucky than good.


  104. A few quick comments: Tex for someone so critical of other’s blog designs, you are truly clueless about WordPress. Even though Chen has already answered you, good God man … you don’t get that some folks get their broadband connection from cable companies? You also haven’t done even the slightest bit of research to know that wordpress.com (vs wordpress.org) is friggin free? Maybe Chen can start a tutorial for you in the lounge cos it seems you need one.

    On the same subject, Chen I AM a bit confused by your connecting broadband access to the survival of your blog. Hell, it might not be pretty but you could run your blog on a dial up line. Personally, I get my broadband via DSL because I had bad experiences with cable internet (I do get my TV from cable).

    And Tex, you bet I am astounded that W did more with his education than I did with mine. I still doubt he’s much smarter than I am … even you have said advanced degrees are highly overrated. 😉

    Now, I know since Tex is on his “Rutherford is a vicious POS” stance today, the following will fall on deaf ears but it’s really geared toward Dead Rabbit anyway. When we bought our house six years ago, I did a very stupid thing that is probably VERY American but stupid just the same. I was making almost twice as much as my wife so she paid the living expenses with her salary and we bought a house with a mortgage that used up practically my ENTIRE salary. I could be angry at the bank for letting me make such an asshole move but the truth is I was cocky. I never dreamed I’d lose my job so my attitude was as long as my salary pays the mortgage, big deal that there’s none left over.

    Guess what, job gone … mortgage still there. What’s kept me from foreclosure? Decent severance package, cashed in CD, cashed in all stock, used some equity loan money (yes, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul) and now in 2009, I fully expect to dip into retirement money. Why haven’t I sold the house and moved into a more modest place? First, can’t sell the friggin house in this market. Second, our living expenses use up almost all of my wife’s salary so there would be no money left over for a smaller mortgage/rent anyway.

    I may be able to pull another year out of my 401K but after that, if I don’t find paying work, I’m toast. (I am self employed but I make next to nothing.)

    So, Rabbit, on the one hand, I hear you when you kick yourself for past choices. If I had it to do over again, I would never have bought a house that pushed my finances to the limit. Still, I did and there’s nothing I can do about it now. Seems that constantly beating myself up for it serves no purpose. Give yourself a break. It sounds like you’re under enough pressure without adding to it with lots of self-recrimination.

    Finally a quick comment for Sensico. You talk a lot of common sense but believe me when I say that life can sometimes take your common sense and toss it out the window. When I was much younger, I used my credit cards for the convenience of not carrying cash. I paid the cards off in full every month. My Mom could not understand that. She thought the whole point of credit was to pay things off “on time”. I always considered myself wiser financially. I was also pretty critical of my sister’s financial decisions over the years. Well, my sister is employed and while not rich, she doesn’t have the worries that her big shot brother now has.

    I don’t mean to condescend, really, but when I was your age I had all the friggin answers. Despite some challenges, a physical disability among them, I lived a pretty fortunate life right up until about two and a half years ago. Then, I almost died from respiratory arrest, and a bit more than a year later got laid off. I didn’t plan on any of it happening and suddenly the answers weren’t so damn clear. I’m not saying that because you are young that your advice is worthless. You have a clarity of vision that comes with youth. It’s refreshing and it can actually brighten the spirits of more cynical folks (as long as you don’t get too haughty about it). Just understand that life can throw some crap at you that really takes you off your game. Keep that in mind as you criticize how Chen spends his money or how anyone else here conducts their life.

    Tex, say what you like about me but I’ve never attacked how you raise and support your family or how you’ve dealt with any of life’s issues personally. I think it’s important when Sensico sees us battling it out here in the chamber that she understands that despite our differences, we share some of the same struggles.


  105. Sorry Chen, I started the last post with “a few quick comments” and didn’t realize I’d written a novel until I saw it posted. My bad. 😦


  106. Rutherford, you’re right…but it’s in my blood. I get it from my Dad. We are some of the worst “what if” people you will ever meet. I just can’t stop it. My wife tells me the same thing.

    But yeah…it comes in waves of 48 hours of disgust with myself. Then I sleep.

    I really get into Christmas. Within a week, it will be all cheer over here.


  107. Rutherford,

    Tex for someone so critical of other’s blog designs, you are truly clueless about WordPress. Even though Chen has already answered you, good God man … you don’t get that some folks get their broadband connection from cable companies? You also haven’t done even the slightest bit of research to know that wordpress.com (vs wordpress.org) is friggin free? Maybe Chen can start a tutorial for you in the lounge cos it seems you need one.

    Good grief Rutherford, you’re slipping. What the hell are you talking about? Well hell no I haven’t researched WordPress. I could care less about this crap. I’m supposed to be in medical school. I left this stuff five years ago and retired forever from it.

    I haven’t been critical of Chen either on this thread. DesertSage was the one giving Chen a hard time; not me. And I get my broadband from my cable company dork. Doesn’t cost me $150 a month.

    I admit self-imposed ignorance about WordPress but I think it important for ‘your haughtiness’ to remember, I too have a computer science degree, of which 99% of what I knew is now obsolete. But when I did design and develop, it with tools a hellavu lot more difficult that a blog designed with proprietary software written by someone else. This is nothing more than user software – say on par with PowerPoint.

    Are you really so clueless and arrogant that you don’t think I could figure this stuff out if I set my mind to it? I’m not being critical of Chen other than the norm of beating him up for his politics – his website is beautiful. I was possibly offering to help him out for letting me use his board. Now that’s a sin?

    And Rutherford, though I detest your mindset and grow weary of your bigotry, you will be glad to know I personally wish you no harm, nor do I want your family suffering on account of circumstances, mostly out of your control. I take no joy in your current position, even if you are a vicious POS. 😉


  108. Here Rutherford,

    I will give you an opportunity to mock my ignorance and this time I will be specific with my questions.

    My real question about WordPress isn’t if the service is free but is there a limit to use? For instance, is there a charge for usage (records, tables, hits, database) above a maximum allowable number of bytes, or something to that regard.

    Now, I don’t think that is an unreasonable question to ask. And I just looked at my bill. I pay approximately $91 for about 70 channels, no pay services like HBO, and unlimited Cox broadband. The wireless network I paid for myself and it seems to serve about four simultaneous users adequately.

    Sensico is probably right that Chen could can the pay services and save himself at least $50 bucks a month.


  109. Tex,l I discovered the hard way that you need a premium account to upload your own videos. Basically, you have to pay for the extra space you’re using. Other than that, I don’t know of any payment requirements from wordpress.com. Now wordpress.org is another matter since as I understand it, you run your blog off your local server using a platform they provide for you. You pay for that.

    Admittedly, Chen knows the nuts and bolts of WordPress better than I. I was just cracking wise ‘cos you seemed to think that WordPress costs $150.00 a month. Believe me, if that were the case, in my situation, there would be no Rutherford Lawson. (Yes, I know I’ve just set myself up for an insult … I’m braced.) 🙂


  110. Chen, I know I mentioned this earlier but have you compared DSL costs (if it’s available in your area) to cable? Supposedly DSL is a tad slower but I sure don’t notice anything.


  111. “R”,

    No mock, no insult…the fact that I don’t agree with you, doesn’t mean I don’t think you a good writer Mr. Lawson – I do. And Merry Christmas season.

    I just hung Christmas lights and I find that to be about as fun and rewarding as pulling teeth. I do it for my youngest who insist that we have lights every year. Bah humbug…

    I admit complete ignorance about WordPress. I knew the basic service was free, but had no idea if they charged for traffic, storing comments, etc…that’s what I thought Chen was talking about – access plus ancillary charges for the service. In other words, I thought my big mouth and fat fingers were costing the General money.

    If it were my recommendation R & Chen, for what it is worth, I would remain with cable. It’s a little more expensive, but has better thruput, I’ve found more reliable, and the AT&T folks are the ones pushing for bandwidth limitations.


  112. Oh, and I meant to add about cable, if Chen’s is like mine, they bundle the TV and Cable modem, saving me about $10.00 a month.


  113. Sorry to put us back on topic but…

    Chen,

    “solar1-

    First, 9/11 wasn’t Bush’s fault, it was Clinton’s (if you really want to blame someone). Clinton had several chances to assassinate Osama Bin Laden, but didn’t. I doubt that Laden’s assassination would have eliminated any terrorist attacks on U.S. soil, but it might have prevented 9/11

    And I suppose if we follow that, it’d be Bush’s fault if we were to be attacked next year, because of Tora Bora? And while Clinton might have missed, did Bush even try?”

    Clinton didn’t try. He was given several oppurtunities to assassinate Osama Bin Laden (I already mentioned this above). If Bush hadn’t tried to stop the terrorists, the next attack might have been his fault if he didn’t try (Clinton isn’t responsible for all the terror attacks during his term either, some are going to happen), but that is what this whole War on Terror is about. That’s why it is called a ‘War on Terror’.

    And as I said previously, Clinton is to blame “ONLY IF YOU WANT TO BLAME SOMEONE”. Hundreds or thousands of people can share the blame if you’d like.:wink:

    (First time I ever used a smiley)


  114. And it didn’t work.


  115. Leave a space Solar and it will ” :wink:” 😉


  116. or better yet, Solar, type “; – )” without the spaces and you’ll get your smiley. I find the symbolic emoticons easier than the remembering the word shortcuts. 😉


  117. 😉


  118. Rutherford or Chen,

    Is there a way to use symbolic emoticons (that’s the proper word, huh?) for anything other than 🙂 😦 or ~)


  119. Oops…now I can’t remember the 😉 one. It’s been too long and my memory ain’t what she used to be.


  120. Dummy Tex,

    Sorry R. I notice you just typed the answer three posts above. Gad!


  121. Test…

    😉


  122. Okay, that’s it. A semicolon like “;)”. It is absolutely amazing what I am forgetting anymore. I went to the kitchen the other three times for a fork. I came back one time with a trashbag, once with a napkin.


  123. other night…see

    Did I mention I also type and talk to myself a lot anymore?


  124. you should go to the doctor, seriously, aren’t those signs of some disorder. Actually it could be bad diet, I found out that I was deficient in iron and had considerably high potassium and that greatly effects your everyday activity. Though I always had Iron issues, one of my favorite foods are green beans I ate a whole bunch a few years ago as well as some other vegetables and my iron levels returned to normal, last year I fell off the greenbean wagon, and now my iron levels are down again.


  125. solar1-

    Clinton didn’t try. He was given several oppurtunities to assassinate Osama Bin Laden (I already mentioned this above). If Bush hadn’t tried to stop the terrorists, the next attack might have been his fault if he didn’t try (Clinton isn’t responsible for all the terror attacks during his term either, some are going to happen), but that is what this whole War on Terror is about. That’s why it is called a ‘War on Terror’.

    The “War on Terror” is just a catchphrase, but I don’t think there’s reason to believe that Clinton didn’t try.


  126. you should go to the doctor, seriously, aren’t those signs of some disorder.

    In my case, I think it’s called old age, Dementia, or Alzheimer’s.


  127. Lets not forget this “war on terror” helped catch some top level terrorists, Al Qaeda is weakened because of this war on terror believe it or not. Though I may not like the war in Iraq, I do like the fact that we are fighting the war on terror because we need to. I suppose it would be correct to say that Clinton could have been trying to fight the war on terror. I don’t think he made as much progress though.


  128. Here’s something that proves the ridiculousness of Krauthammer’s “out of the blue” take on 9/11: Bin Laden Issue Station

    They had been gathering intelligence on bin Laden and al Qaeda for years, and to this day Osama obviously remains elusive. But everything that the intelligence community knew was gathered during Clinton’s administration and handed over to Bush’s. Its likely that Clinton and Bush would have captured/killed bin Laden if they hadn’t been constrained by the realities of the legal, technological, and manpower issues.

    I suppose time will tell if the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq will pay dividends, or if they just fostered a larger threat that we’ll face years or decades from now when confronted by a generation of Middle Easterners who grew up fighting and networking against Americans right on their home turf.

    Just more reasons why the “but he kept us safe” is pretty hallow.


  129. Hallow?

    You mean hollow? Shallow?

    Just more reasons why the “but he kept us safe” is pretty hallow true.


  130. Egads, Tex, you’re right. I screwed that up. I meant hollow.


  131. 😆

    But it was pretty funny. I give you a pass on that one. I always knew deep down you thought us conservatives holy.


  132. […] a page for smilies.  Here’s a page that after comment 30-something turns into a long discussion abot […]


  133. You know, for a long time this “war on terror” phrase has bothered me. There cannot be a war on terror. War is something that is declared and then once entered into has a conclusion, win or lose. In the war on terror, we have not declared war on anyone. Secondly it is a war we will never win. It’s like talking about the war on crime or the war on drugs. It’s dopey.

    Terrorism should be classified as a type of criminal activity (the fact that it is politically motivated is irrelevant) and should be pursued by law enforcement officials on an international level. It makes me think our military shouldn’t even be involved. We recently sent FBI agents to Mumbai to try to sort that mess out. THAT’s what we should do with Bin Laden etal., send law enforcement folks (like perhaps SWAT teams) out to get him.


  134. That is what the U.S. is doing. If we don’t have our elite counterterrorism forces out there (the ones that make the FBI look like a bunch of high schoolers)trying to find Bin Laden, I am training as a suicide bomber.


  135. Ruthorford,

    Wars can tie, and sometimes a victory in a war so weakens the nation that they become a pushover, couldn’t it classify as a loss?

    You’re right, we didn’t really declare war on anyone, the Fundamentalist Islamic Church declared war on US.

    The war won’t have a clear conclusiion, but it can be won. If fought correctly (and woth a little help from God), it will eventuallly fade out. The war ends when they (the terrorists) stop shooting at us.


  136. “R”,

    You may have a legitimate point, but how does one declare war on rag-tag bands of thugs in more than 60 countries?


  137. sometimes a victory in a war so weakens the nation that they become a pushover

    Solar, what you describe here is a variant on the Pyrrhic Victory where one wins the battle but loses the war due to being so badly weakened in the won battle.

    I hate to call you naive but if the shoe fits…

    The terrorists will never stop shooting at us particularly if we don’t take steps to make recruitment less successful. One of the reasons circumstances in Iraq turned for the better was that we paid one of our enemy factions to stop fighting us and support us in opposition to the “insurgents”. If I’m not mistaken this was an aspect of the Sunni awakening. Amazing what a few bucks can do to “awaken” people.

    When we take active steps to improve the lives of the average Afghan or Iraqi or Pakistani, that is when there will be fewer of them shooting at us and even then we will still have to deal with the lunatic fringe.


  138. Damn, my quote didn’t work. Apologies to all … the quote should have stopped at “become a pushover”. 😦


  139. Only middle-class America has been kept “safe”. The rest of the world doesn’t feel safe. America has gone on a rampage the past eight years and poor people in developing countries feel the pressure. Ask an Iraqi if he feels safe. If he says yes, it’s because the rest of his ethnic or religious sect wiped out the other groups in the area, which is what’s happened in Iraq the past couple years. Latin America has experienced this for decades. The United States has been like a rapist to the area, and Latin America is a rape victim, damaged and lashing out in every way it can. Ask any Panamian if they felt safe after the US killed thousands of civilians in 1990. It’s time for Americans to get over themselves. Americans have been safer than almost any other nationality. You don’t have to worry about a superpower bombing your house. GET OVER YOURSELVES.

    By the way Chenzhen well done, 138 comments. This place has really grown


  140. […] a page for smilies.  Here’s a page that after comment 30-something turns into a long discussion abot […]


  141. […] This “But He Kept Us Safe” Meme…(pt. II) January 21, 2009 Yea, I know I’ve been over this before, but I thought I’d mention that there now appears to be a website created for the purposes of […]


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